Jeffrey wrote:

Acharya S hasn't responded because you aren't worth her time. All you had to do was type in Horus AND Sun God in the search engine. There are plenty of links that say Horus was a SUN GOD and associated with Ra. Look for yourself.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&client=REAL-tb&q=Horus+AND+Sun+God

http://design.goantiques.com/detail,egyptian-statue-horus,103130.html

http://members.aol.com/egyptart/hormyth.html

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus

and this:

The name Horus also means the forsighted, where one eye represents the Sun and other represents the Moon. The Sun was Known as "Horakhty", or Horus in the Horizon., Horus was considered as the god of the east and the rising Sun. Horus has the Shape of a falcon or a hawk or can take a human Shape with a falcon.

from this site:

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/horus.htm

Your search was obviously self fulfilling and limited. Peer deeper.

Regards,   Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

Actually, when Acharya S responded to my query about whether Horus was the sun god or sky God, by stating that he was definitely the sun god, I took her word for it. As you can see in my response to that letter (the one dated 9/4, and the one she failed to respond to), I didn't argue the point with her. At the point where I was writing to her, I was just beginning my research, and was hoping she could back up her claims about parallels between Jesus and Horus, essentially as an aid to my research. I wanted her to point me to her sources, books or websites that simply gave the Horus story, and which showed the comparisons to the Jesus story that she mentioned. As you can see, she was unable to do so.

Since then, as I've done more research, and, yes, I have seen a few scholarly sites (maybe two or three) stating the Horus is a "sun god", but the vast majority of them state that he is a "sky god". Since sites stating that he is a "sky god" are about ten times as plentiful (and I had not come across any at that time), you can see why I was confused by her statement. But since it was completely beside the point of what I was trying to get from her (sites backing up her claim that Horus raised El-Azarus from the dead, was crucified and resurrected, and walked on water, among other things), I didn't find it worth arguing over, so I took her word for it. Whether Horus was a "sun god" or a "sky god" has nothing to do with whether there are any parallels between him and Jesus.

The only reason she refused to respond to my last letter was that I was asking her to back up her claims about parallels between Horus and Jesus, and she had no way to back them up, since she knows as well as I do that her claims are entirely bogus. I've asked this of a lot of Christ-mythers, and so far, they've either ignored me or just reiterated the claims without providing any evidence for them. If you have evidence to support Acharya's claims, I'd love to see it.

Peace,   David

Hello David,

I offer this insight about the proof which you ask. Horus raises Osiris from the dead. The below explains that quite well, from

Tom Harpur. The rest of the article is at this link: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:fyjX_NzO22cJ:

www.tomharpur.com/articles/MythAsFact.asp+Tom+Harpur+AND+Egyptian+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&client=REAL-tb

Read very carefully now.

---

Secondly, the first three Gospels say that it was Jesus’ act of cleansing the Temple which precipitated the authorities’ final decision to get rid of him. John flatly contradicts this and says that it was the raising of Lazarus that was the last straw. A sudden meeting was held; fear was expressed that “all men will believe in him;” and “from that day forth they took counsel together to put him to death.”

But, my doubts were more than confirmed recently when I discovered that the whole Lazarus miracle” had already been told in Egyptian mythology 5000 years earlier. Egyptologist Gerald Massey and Kuhn have both described in detail how “the Egyptian Christ,” Horus, raised his father, Osiris, from the grave at a place called, Anu. In Egyptian writings, the names of gods always had the definite article before them. Thus, Osiris, also known as Asar, would in Hebrew have had ‘El’ as a prefix, El-Asar. In time, the ‘E’ was dropped and the ‘s’ became a ‘z.’ The Latin ‘us’ was added and you have Lazarus. If you put the Hebrew ‘beth” = house of, before Anu and, as often was the case in ancient usage, change the ‘u’ to a ‘y,’ the word becomes Bethany. There were two women present at the raising of Osiris, as in the Gospel account. One was called, Meri, or Mary. The plural of Meri is Merte (Mertae in Latin) or Martha.

---

Regards,   Jeffrey

Sorry, but that hardly counts as "proof", just mere repetition of a false claim. If you want to prove to me that Horus raised Osiris from the dead, just find me any unbiased web site or book (that is, a web site or book not specifically trying to prove links between Horus and Jesus) that states that Horus raised Osiris from the dead, and that this story appeared prior to Jesus' time. Or such texts stating that he had 12 apostles, was crucified and resurrected, etc. That's all I was asking Acharya S (and other Christ-mythers) for, and they have not been able to provide it. If you can provide such a text for me, I would love to see it.

Secondly, the first three Gospels say that it was Jesus’ act of cleansing the Temple which precipitated the authorities’ final decision to get rid of him. John flatly contradicts this and says that it was the raising of Lazarus that was the last straw. A sudden meeting was held; fear was expressed that “all men will believe in him;” and “from that day forth they took counsel together to put him to death.”

John never says it was the "last straw", just that the pharisees were disturbed by people's reactions, which I'm sure they were.

But, my doubts were more than confirmed recently when I discovered that the whole Lazarus miracle” had already been told in Egyptian mythology 5000 years earlier. Egyptologist Gerald Massey and Kuhn have both described in detail how “the Egyptian Christ,” Horus, raised his father, Osiris, from the grave at a place called, Anu. In Egyptian writings, the names of gods always had the definite article before them. Thus, Osiris, also known as Asar, would in Hebrew have had ‘El’ as a prefix, El-Asar. In time, the ‘E’ was dropped and the ‘s’ became a ‘z.’ The Latin ‘us’ was added and you have Lazarus. If you put the Hebrew ‘beth” = house of, before Anu and, as often was the case in ancient usage, change the ‘u’ to a ‘y,’ the word becomes Bethany. There were two women present at the raising of Osiris, as in the Gospel account. One was called, Meri, or Mary. The plural of Meri is Merte (Mertae in Latin) or Martha.

Again, just find me these parallels in unbiased web sites or books, and I'll consider it. Where are these texts and Massey and Kuhn supposedly saw? Are they in a book somewhere? In a library somewhere? Where? And why aren't Christ-mythers parading them for the world to see, sticking them on multiple web sites and in multiple books, so that we can see for ourselves what they supposedly say? Why are they hiding these texts from us, if they actually exist? Why hasn't even one Christ-myther responded to my requests for evidence by providing actual evidence?

David

That is not a false claim! That is history. History doesn't lie. Boy, you don't get it do you? The history itself mentions Horus raising Osiris. That is the mythology of the ancient Egyptian religion. Duh! It doesn't mean it really happened, for it certainly isn't an actual event, but the myth was in place far before your make believe Christ.

Biased? The guy that wrote that is a Christian!

Regards,   Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

If it's part of the well-known mythology of Ancient Egypt, then you should have no problem finding me just one source for it. Any mythology book or mythology site that mentions Horus raising Osiris from the dead (unless it's specifically trying to draw parallels to Jesus) will do. I've searched and searched and searched myself, and I've asked and asked and asked Christ-mythers to provide me with such a source. Not one has been able to do so. Can you?

Biased? The guy that wrote that is a Christian!

Yes, he does appear to be a Christian (perhaps a member of "Jesus Seminar"?). But he was clearly looking for support for the idea that the resurrection of Lazarus never happened. That makes him biased.

Peace,   David

What this means is that when I respond, I'm responding to the item just before.  But when Jeffrey responds, he may be responding to something I said up to six letters ago.  I'll try to make sure it's clear what Jeffrey is responding to if it's unclear, though.

I sent you websites that say that is the myth. They were not biased websites. They were based on solid acedemics.

http://www.bobkwebsite.com/egyptianmythvjesusmyth.html

Just type in "albert churchward" and horus in the google search engine.

On that site I just sent you, as well as on my site, there is the image from the temple of Luxor of the Annunciation, I think it's christ5.htm or 4.   Biased folks, however, cannot understand the image or any other evidence, including the writings of Plutarch concerning Osiris and Isis. Massey brings up plenty of Egyptian texts.

Read Budge's works--they are in concurrence with Massey in the most germane aspects. Budge is a well-respected CHRISTIAN Egyptologist. The mythicists over the centuries HAVE brought this information to light, countless times, to be gagged by idiots unable to comprehend what they are seeing.

As Acharya S's "Beautiful Christian" page says, "Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past." -Maurice Maeterlinck

Regards, Jeffrey

I sent you websites that say that is the myth. They were not biased websites. They were based on solid acedemics.

Academics of what? These people supposedly looked at version of the Horus story in which Horus raises Osiris from the dead, but now NOBODY can find the texts they supposedly looked at? We just have to "trust them" that these texts exist?

Just type in "albert churchward" and horus in the google search engine.

I hate to break it to you, but Churchward is a well-known joke, even among atheists. I was in a message board at TheologyWeb.com and an atheist tried using Churchward to back up a point he was making, and the other atheists on the board warned him not to use Churchward, since nothing he wrote could be trusted.

The mythicists over the centuries HAVE brought this information to light, countless times, to be gagged by idiots unable to comprehend what they are seeing.

The Christ-mythers can't be very smart if they don't know how to put these texts onto web pages or into books so that others can see them, can they?

David

You are biased too then! Because you look for support that it did happen.

That what happened?

Tom Harpur is just trying to support his thesis that Jesus Christ is "Everyman." That is, the story originated in Egypt, changed over time to where people forgot the real origins and took on a new god for a new time that they all thought was real. They didn't know the whole story was far older and not real, but myth. They didn't know this alleged Jesus couldn't have possibly enacted the same story again, because they didn't know about the original story, but there was one and this alleged Jesus would have coincidentally done much the same thing as the original myth had it really happened, which I don't believe it did. The premise that it is connected to the original story and became lost to the more recent believers is certainly plausible. In other words, Tom Harpur is on to something and he is still a Christian!

Jeffrey,

Tom Harpur is also quite gullible if he believes that Horus raised Osiris from the dead, just because some Christ-mythers said so. Personally, I require just a bit of evidence to back up the claim.

You are obviously deluded and blind. I will say no more.

This debate is over. I win.

Congratulations,

David

Oh, and you are biased. You don't want this to conflict with your belief in Jesus, so you refuse to see the true connections. It takes one to know one. You are biased.

Regards, Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

Actually, if there is a connection, I would love to see it. If I didn't want it to conflict with my belief in Jesus, then why on Earth have I asked roughly a dozen Christ-mythers (including yourself and Acharya S) to provide any unbiased sources for their claims? Do you really think that asking for evidence is unreasonable?

David

I suppose they could go and dig the engravings out of the wall at Luxor and show it to you, or you could just buy a ticket. We're that smart!

Or...umm...take a picture of it? Do you have any links to sites showing what the engravings actually show?

David

You think you are neutral? Hah! I can see through you Christian.

Regards, Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

"Neutral" in what sense? If "neutral" means you don't believe a claim without a little evidence to back it up, then I guess I'm "neutral". If "neutral" means that you believe someone who says that one story is based on another, but can't provide even a smidgen of evidence for his supposed parallels, then I guess I'm not.

David

Anything that is against your belief is biased. That it?

Regards, Jeffreys

No. If you found a web site that simply gave the ancient Horus story, without specifically trying to draw parallels to the Jesus story, and mentioned his having 12 apostles, being born of a virgin, raising Osiris from the dead, being crucified and resurrected, then, while it would be "against my belief", I would not consider it biased at all.

David

(re: Tom Harpur)

Oh, now he's gullible. I guess that engraving at the Temple of Luxor wasn't to your liking!

I didn't see any pictures of any engraving. Did I miss something?

I produced an unbiased source for the claim. You are attempting to say it is biased when it is not. Who the hell do you think you're fooling? How the hell can you still say biased? I think you are deluded.

Regards, Jeffrey

Why don't you write Mr. Harpur and ask him what his source was for the "Horus raising Osiris" claim, then?

Do you want to settle this debate quickly? Then do a Google search on "Egyptian Mythology" and "Horus", and you'll get plenty of sites that simply tell the Horus story without trying to parallel the Jesus story. Then just find the first one you come to which mentions his being born of a virgin, raising Osiris, being crucified, etc. and give me the link to it. I'll gladly post the link on my site, and agree that you win this debate.

And if you can't find any such site, why do you think that is?

Peace, David

(this is to my saying "Do you really think that asking for evidence is unreasonable?"

What ever gave you the idea that I think asking for evidence is unreasonable? I ask for evidence that this is biased!

Regards, Jeffrey

How about the fact that these texts DO NOT exist, yet the Christ-mythers keep telling us that they do?

Or if you think they do exist, where are they?

David

I've produced evidence. I sent you the link to all the evidence you asked for. You call it biased. I say that is B.S. claptrap bunkum! Prove to me that it is biased? Two can play at this game.

Regards, Jeffrey

You haven't sent me the link to ANY of the evidence I've asked for. All I've asked for is one book or website which simply tells the Horus story, and mentions his raising Osiris from the dead. All you've sent me is sites which repeat the claim without providing any evidence.

David

(to my asking if he could find a unbiased site showing parallels)

Not yet, but I'm certain there are some. I guess with you Christians everything is seeing is believing until you have to take blind faith in your Christ story.

Regards, Jeffrey

If you're certain there are some, then go look for them, and let me know when you find them.

At least in our case, we do have texts which date back about 2000 years which tell the story that we claim it does. Christ-mythers don't have that, just claims that the texts exist.

David

(to my asking if he had pictures of the Luxor engravings)

Do you have pictures of Jesus rising from the dead?

Hum. I wonder why so many people believe it WITHOUT pictures?

Regards, Jeffrey

If I claimed that I had pictures of Jesus rising from the dead, but refused to show these pictures to you, then would you believe that I really had them? Of course not. That's the same kind of problem I have with Christ-mythers. They keep claiming that they have evidence, but then refuse to show it when I ask them to.

David

Seeing is believing huh? You disbelieve the scholars? You think we are the conspirators here? Ha, watch the Discovery Channel sometime, they show all the pictures that refute your Christ claims every time there is something about ancient Egypt on!

You just have to have the sense to know how to look. Your Jesus is a sun god. Based entirely on sun gods.

Seeing is believing huh? You disbelieve the scholars? You think we are the conspirators here? Ha, watch the Discovery Channel sometime, they show all the pictures that refute your Christ claims every time there is something about ancient Egypt on!

Wow! If the evidence is that easy to come by, why do Christ-mythers always back down when I ask for their evidence?

You just have to have the sense to know how to look. Your Jesus is a sun god. Based entirely on sun gods.

Jesus has very little to do with the sun. That's just another Christ-myth claim that no one ever backs up.

David

Oh, but it is biased when it is against your belief?

As I said, something being "against my belief" doesn't make it biased. If you could find a site like the one I just asked for, I would not consider it biased.

David

Just saying that you'll get plenty of sites that tell the Horus story without mentioning Jesus means nothing! Maybe their aim wasn't to mention any of the parallels when they covered the myths.

They can talk for hours about certain aspects and still not include them all. Myths change over time you know. They didn't just stay the same throughout time. There were many different versions of these myths, just as there are many different versions of your religion based on different interpretations. There isn't a wholly uniform consensus among all Christians as to what exactly transpired, that is why there are so many different sects. Our proofs have shown some of these variations while you are stuck on the more germane aspects.

If you take all of the 20 plus gospels that were written at one time, most considered spurious and apocryphal, you'd find many different versions/myths about your Jesus. The four that became your book are just the ones they figured seemed real.

Just saying that you'll get plenty of sites that tell the Horus story without mentioning Jesus means nothing! Maybe their aim wasn't to mention any of the parallels when they covered the myths.

And that's what I'm asking you for. Sites whose aim it is to simply tell the Horus story without mentioning parallels to Jesus. If you could find me such a site, that would be wonderful.

They can talk for hours about certain aspects and still not include them all. Myths change over time you know. They didn't just stay the same throughout time. There were many different versions of these myths, just as there are many different versions of your religion based on different interpretations. There isn't a wholly uniform consensus among all Christians as to what exactly transpired, that is why there are so many different sects. Our proofs have shown some of these variations while you are stuck on the more germane aspects.

If you take all of the 20 plus gospels that were written at one time, most considered spurious and apocryphal, you'd find many different versions/myths about your Jesus. The four that became your book are just the ones they figured seemed real.

Actually, they were the only ones whose authorship could be determined. Most of the others came from Gnostic sources, people who didn't know Jesus, and thus didn't know what transpired.

David

(re: the Temple of Luxor)

I guess you'd better buy a ticket to the Temple of Luxor then, and take a picture while you are there. These engravings in stone are the ancient Egyptian proof! You don't believe they exist because you haven't seen them with your own eyes? I suggest you start your own Conspiracy!

Regards, Jeffrey

No, I believe that the engravings exist. I just don't know what they show. You'd think that if they were such good evidence that the Horus story is the basis for the Jesus story, one of the Christ-mythers would have taken a picture by now, instead of just saying "this is what it shows, trust me".

David

And that's what I'm asking you for. Sites whose aim it is to simply tell the Horus story without mentioning parallels to Jesus. If you could find me such a site, that would be wonderful.

You didn't just ask for that, you asked for other parallels too. I provided some of those parallels. You denied them as biased. That is your problem.

You only provided CLAIMS of the parallels, not the parallels themselves. If I said to you "I have photographs of Jesus' resurrection, but I won't show them to you", you wouldn't consider that evidence, would you? No, you'd only consider that a CLAIM of evidence. That's why I reject those who merely claim that the parallels exist, without showing me evidence that they do.

Peace, David

Yeah. And your texts are ripe with contradictions. I've seen your website and it hasn't addressed the contradictions effectively at all. More Christian apologetics at work. A sham.

Regards,  Jeffrey

If you want to give me specifics of where I fail to address contradictions effectively, I'll gladly discuss them with you. In fact, I've been hoping for more feedback from non-believers regarding them.

David

Do you see me backing down? I guess you haven't watched any of the programs to which I refer. The connections are obvious that this Jesus is based on Pagan sun gods, that the attributes given to him are identical to sun god lore.

Regards, Jeffrey

Such as?

David

If you can't see the connections between your Jesus Christ and sun god lore, I can't help you.

Regards,  Jeffrey

If someone showed them to me (and hopefully they're better than the ones I respond to at http://www.KingDavid8.com/Copycat/JesusSun.html), maybe I could see them. Or is this another claim of evidence without actual evidence?

David

There are no known authors of the bible. Scholars admit that no one really knows who wrote any of the books of the bible, regardless of what believers claim.

Regards, Jeffrey

Again, a claim without any evidence. If a writing is widely attributed to a certain individual, and there exists no evidence that the person didn't write it, then it's authorship is not considered to be in doubt. No, that doesn't mean that the credited author ABSOLUTELY wrote the text, but there is no good reason, lacking evidence to the contrary, to suppose that he didn't.

In the case of the gospels, there are no copies attributed to other authors, no copies that were clearly not given authorship credit, and no evidence that the author credits were later additions to the texts.

If you want to doubt the authorship, that's fine. I would gladly doubt it myself if I was given a good reason to. But for now, I don't doubt that Luke wrote his gospel any more than I doubt that Edgar Allen Poe wrote "The Raven".

David

No, I believe that the engravings exist. I just don't know what they show.

Good point. I'll concede that one to you.

Regards, Jeffrey

You only provided CLAIMS of the parallels, not the parallels themselves. If I said to you "I have photographs of Jesus' resurrection, but I won't show them to you", you wouldn't consider that evidence, would you? No, you'd only consider that a CLAIM of evidence. That's why I reject those who merely claim that the parallels exist, without showing me evidence that they do.

Your points are becoming more clear to me. I guess I have to concede that I claims of evidence because I do not have the evidence you require to accept the parallels, but just the claim that it exists. I believe it exists, you don't. I guess I'm willing to accept what you are not based on what we've seen. I guess you require more than I do as I have some degree of trust in the sources I claim, even if they haven't shown all sources. You have faith in your story, I have faith in my stance. I may be wrong, but equally so you may be wrong, even though you believe the stuff doesn't exist due to lack of evidence.

We really don't know as yet then and can not say for absolutely certain who is right as the verdict will have to be pending until we see with our own eyes the evidence which is claimed. I will try to find pictures. I still think there are parallels to Jesus and sun gods. That is certain. I've seen too many parallels not just to lore, but to the idea of the sun itself. Jesus is the light? The sun is the light? Without the sun we would perish? You say without Jesus we will perish? The sun is in there, whether you believe it or not.

The ancients were enthralled with the sun and believed in its power.

Regards, Jeffrey

Your points are becoming more clear to me. I guess I have to concede that I claims of evidence because I do not have the evidence you require to accept the parallels, but just the claim that it exists. I believe it exists, you don't. I guess I'm willing to accept what you are not based on what we've seen. I guess you require more than I do as I have some degree of trust in the sources I claim, even if they haven't shown all sources. You have faith in your story, I have faith in my stance. I may be wrong, but equally so you may be wrong, even though you believe the stuff doesn't exist due to lack of evidence.

I'm not quite so concerned with lack of evidence as I am with the claim that the evidence exists, followed by persistent refusal to give me the evidence. If Christ-mythers said "we believe that the Jesus story is based on ancient sun-god stories, but we have no evidence to back this claim up", I would simply agree to disagree, and respect their stance. But if they claim they have evidence, then I'll need to see it before I'll believe them.

We really don't know as yet then and can not say for absolutely certain who is right as the verdict will have to be pending until we see with our own eyes the evidence which is claimed. I will try to find pictures. I still think there are parallels to Jesus and sun gods. That is certain. I've seen too many parallels not just to lore, but to the idea of the sun itself. Jesus is the light? The sun is the light? Without the sun we would perish? You say without Jesus we will perish? The sun is in there, whether you believe it or not.

Okay, I'll agree that their both being "the light" and the fact that we would perish without them may be parallels, but I consider them too weak to be significant. I could take any two items and draw similar parallels between them (both my cell phone and my television are electronic, and allow people from other parts of the world to tell me things, but that doesn't mean one of them is a myth).

We can discuss contradictions later. I would love to. I haven't the time to go into another conversation right now though. Maybe tomorrow.

Regards, Jeffrey

Sounds good. In fact, I've got to work in the morning, so I'm going to bow out at this point. I will respond to the letters that I can see you've already sent, but I'll have to do it tomorrow (probably not until the evening).

Peace, David