| Nate wrote:
Wow, the very first statement you give as fact regarding the Horus / Jesus myth similarities is wrong. You said: "Horus' mother was not a virgin. She had a child before Horus, named Seth." Geb and Nut gave birth to Seth, Osiris, Isis and Nepsyth. These were 4 siblings. Seth was Isis' brother, not her child. Also the the "virgin birth of Horus" refers to Isis' immaculate conception of Horus while Osiris was dead. |
| My Response:
Nate, Thanks for the information. Some sites do say that Isis was Seth's mother and Horus' brother, but I see now that other sites say differently, so I'll clarify that on my page. And maybe I'm a stickler for details, but a "virgin birth" means the mother is a virgin, and an "immaculate conception" means the mother is pure (immaculate=pure). The conception of Horus was neither of these things, but could best be called a "miraculous conception". David |
| Nate responded:
Might I ask what gave you the impression Isis was not a virgin? Are there definitive myths of her sexual escapades prior to her immaculate conception of Horus? If there are, I have never heard them. She did not give birth to Seth as I pointed out in my last email. Whatever website you got that from is simply wrong. Isis is often referred to as the "black virgin" or "virgin". Furthermore, her "sex" with the dead Osiris using a fake phallus is not literal but symbolic. This is an example of a myth being passed down, exaggerated and influential yet its meaning remains nearly forgotten. Yet, this myth was the template for Christianity. The story goes like this... Seth drowned Osiris and spread his "limbs" amongst his peers ("limbs" refers to Osiris' worldly possessions, not his actual body parts). Seth was looking to spread the blame. Isis performed the "open-mouth" ritual (ie. CPR) and "resurrected" Osiris with her "magic." She then set about reclaiming Osiris' possessions, reclaiming them all except Osiris' phallus. Osiris' near-death experience left him nearly impotent as is often the case with NDE's and mystical experiences to this day. This story is not literal, she did not magically put Osiris back together sans penis. However, the myth does say that Isis fashioned a fake phallus and then conceived Horus who grew up to avenge his father and battle Seth. A fake phallus could be any number of herbs or perhaps ochric substance that would induce a "fake" erection, much like Viagra does today. The myth is really saying that Osiris learned the mysteries of life and death during his NDE and with that had lost some of the innocent lust for life that normal human beings have. This became the ritual for Ancient Egyptians and modern initiates of the occult ever after-- to induce death by suffication and then resuscitate the initiate. The initiate would "meet the maker" and come back with an entirely different outlook on life. Thanks for listening and I hope you enjoyed it. -Nate |
| I responded:
Might I ask what gave you the impression Isis was not a virgin? The fact that she was married to Osiris, perhaps? Are there definitive myths of her sexual escapades prior to her immaculate conception of Horus? If there are, I have never heard them. If a couple is married, sex is assumed. If you have evidence that they remained celibate despite their being married, go ahead and provide it. She did not give birth to Seth as I pointed out in my last email. Whatever website you got that from is simply wrong.
Then several websites are wrong. Among those claiming that Horus and Seth
were brothers are: And I have already fixed my site to show that different myths show Seth as Horus' uncle. Isis is often referred to as the "black virgin" or "virgin".
But her followers never considered her to be a "virgin mother". According
to a Christ-myth site that I found
(http://watch.pair.com/egypt.html):
"Isis was worshipped as both Virgin and Mother -- but not as a Virgin Mother.
Isians would have considered the notion of the Virgin birth frankly ridiculous:
the gods may be capable of wonders, but they do not demand that their worshippers
suspend their disbelief quite so much. The worship of most major goddesses
emphasized their essential femininity by dividing it up into three main aspects,
each representing the lifecycle of real women. First, there is the Virgin,
then the Mother, then the Crone; all three are also linked to the new moon,
the full moon and the dark side of the moon. Each goddess, including Isis,
was understood to stand for the whole female experience, including sexual
love, and therefore could be invoked to help a woman with any kind of problem
-- unlike the Virgin Mary whose own personal purity is an impenetrable barrier
for those who would like to share their sexual problems with her. Furthermore, her "sex" with the dead Osiris using a fake phallus is not literal but symbolic. This is an example of a myth being passed down, exaggerated and influential yet its meaning remains nearly forgotten. Yet, this myth was the template for Christianity. I'm not seeing what details in that story set up a template for Christianity. Exactly what details, literal or symbolic, do the stories of Isis/Horus and Mary/Jesus have in common? Horus was conceived to avenge his father's death, but Jesus was not conceived to avenge his father's (be it God's or Joseph's) death. Isis was married to Horus' father prior to conception. Mary was not married to Jesus' father prior to conception. Isis conceived Horus with a dead being. Mary did not conceive Jesus with a dead being. So what are the details in common, again? David |
| Nate responded:
NATE: Might I ask what gave you the impression Isis was not a virgin? DAVID: The fact that she was married to Osiris, perhaps? Isis and Osiris are a myth-- supposedly 2 of the first 4 people on the planet. They had no children prior to Horus and I presume there were no condoms back then. Perhaps you shouldn't assume such things. I'm not seeing what details in that story set up a template for Christianity. Exactly what details, literal or symbolic, do the stories of Isis/Horus and Mary/Jesus have in common? The details that set up the template for Christianity are obvious: Osiris as a "dead and reborn God" is just bull crap based on exaggeration of a near death experience of a regular human. (Compare this to Odin's near-death experience, as well. In fact, like Odin, several "dead-and-reborn gods" were strung up to trees, etc. [much like the cross]). All the pagans needed a "dead and reborn God" myth to satisfy them. Christianity abliged this necessity and was fused onto the Jewish scriptures in an attempt to give an heir of legitimacy to the new religion. Jews rejected it, pagans rejected it, almost everyone rejected it. But, eventually, with the "accept Christianity or die" attitude at the time coupled with the assimilation of various sumerian and pagan myths in the the Christian mythos, people eventually gave in and accepted Christianity. It only takes a few generations to pass for a new idea to be accepted, as the last 200 years of American history shows.
Jesus is not the only dead-and-reborn figure, quite plainly. Perhaps you're
also aware that Moses is based on a figure from the Enuma Elish. The similarities
of these myths does not begin and end with Yehoshua ben Josef a.k.a. "Jesus
Christ". The name "christ" itself comes from Sun Worshipping PAGANS! (Sun
of God). More on that here:
-- Now, just as an aside, could you possibly explain this to me: What about the buddhist monks who peacefully set themselves on fire and die in silence? Nate |
| I responded:
NATE: Might I ask what gave you the impression Isis was not a virgin? DAVID: The fact that she was married to Osiris, perhaps? NATE: Isis and Osiris are a myth-- supposedly 2 of the first 4 people on the planet. They had no children prior to Horus and I presume there were no condoms back then. Perhaps you shouldn't assume such things. Even in myths, the idea that married couples didn’t have sex is unusual, to say the least. Unless the myth specifically stated, or at least strongly implied, that the couple remained celibate, I would never assume it. Would you? DAVID: I'm not seeing what details in that story set up a template for Christianity. Exactly what details, literal or symbolic, do the stories of Isis/Horus and Mary/Jesus have in common? NATE: The details that set up the template for Christianity are obvious: I’d love to see them, then. Osiris as a "dead and reborn God" is just bull crap based on exaggeration of a near death experience of a regular human. (Compare this to Odin's near-death experience, as well. In fact, like Odin, several "dead-and-reborn gods" were strung up to trees, etc. [much like the cross]). Except the fact that the details don’t match up at all, except in very minor points such as you would find between any two people, real or fictional. None of them were crucified and resurrected, so to call such stories an influence on Christianity is laughable. The points of comparison between the ancient sun gods and Napoleon are far more striking than any points you can find between them and Jesus (see this page http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nappy.html , if you want to see the sun god/Napoleon comparisons for yourself). I also list the comparisons between Abe Lincoln and JFK at my main copycat page: http://www.KingDavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html , and those are far more striking than anything the Christ-mythers have been able to legitimately find about Jesus and any pre-Christian deity. All the pagans needed a "dead and reborn God" myth to satisfy them. Except most pagan faiths do not have a “dead and reborn God”. Only a handful do, and the details are different enough that they were unlikely to be an influence on Christianity. Minor points of comparison don’t mean much, if the differences far outweigh them. Christianity abliged this necessity and was fused onto the Jewish scriptures in an attempt to give an heir of legitimacy to the new religion. Jews rejected it, pagans rejected it, almost everyone rejected it. But, eventually, with the "accept Christianity or die" attitude at the time coupled with the assimilation of various sumerian and pagan myths in the Christian mythos, people eventually gave in and accepted Christianity. But why would they? If Christianity had nothing going for it except for a handful of followers saying “believe as we do or die”, would anyone take them seriously? And besides that, which Sumerian and pagan myths can be shown to be assimilated into the Christian mythos? A handful of mild, vague similarities means nothing, especially when Christ-mythers have to exaggerate them (“miraculous conception” = “virgin birth”, even if the mother was not a virgin) or outright lie (as with most of their examples), and especially since the differences far outweigh them. I would just once love to see a Christ-myth site that only uses valid comparisons, without exaggerations or lies. Do you know of any? It only takes a few generations to pass for a new idea to be accepted, as the last 200 years of American history shows. Yes, but it must have something more going for it. A handful of people using scare tactics that they can’t back up with evidence or logic would never be accepted. Jesus is not the only dead-and-reborn figure, quite plainly. Yes, but He is the only crucified and resurrected figure. Perhaps you're also aware that Moses is based on a figure from the Enuma Elish. I’ve heard the theory, but haven’t seen the evidence to back it up. If you want to provide the evidence, I’ll respond.
The similarities of these myths does not begin and end with Yehoshua ben
Josef a.k.a. "Jesus Christ". The name "christ" itself comes from Sun Worshipping
PAGANS! (Sun of God). More on that here: I didn’t see anything there about the name “Christ” coming from pagans (I might have missed it, it was a large page). There is an awful lot at that site which is just plain wrong, so I’d have a hard time buying anything that page has to say, unless they can back it up with evidence. -- Now, just as an aside, could you possibly explain this to me: Jesus, according to the general declaration of Christian divines, came to die, and what does he teach by his death? The Rev. F.D. Maurice well said, 'That he who kills for a faith must be weak, that he who dies for a faith must be strong.' How did Jesus die? Giordano Bruno and Julius Caesar Vanini were burned, charged with heresy. They died calm, heroic, defiant of wrong. Jesus, who could not die, courted death, that he, as God (or God's son, depending on your beliefs), might accept (his own) atonement, and might pardon man for a sin which the pardoned man had not committed, and in which he had no share. The death Jesus courted came, and when it came he could not face it, but prayed to himself that he might not die. And at last, when on the cross, if two gospels do him no injustice, his last words were a bitter cry of deep despair. 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' ['What Did Jesus Teach?' by Charles Bradlaugh.] What about the buddhist monks who peacefully set themselves on fire and die in silence? It’s hard to answer your question, since it makes several false assumptions. Jesus did not “pray to himself”, but prayed to God the Father. It’s also not true that Jesus “could not die”, but did die, if only temporarily. I’m also not quite sure what you’re asking. Are you asking why Jesus died, or why people die for their faith in general? Or both? But to comment on part of your issue, I have no admiration for anyone who commits suicide, such as the monks who set themselves on fire, or the Jonestown people, or the Heaven’s Gate cult, but I have great admiration for anyone who stands up for their beliefs (religious, political, or otherwise), even if I don’t agree with their beliefs. Those who refuse to deny their beliefs even under the threat of death are especially to be admired. And killing for religious reasons is something I see as an immoral paradox, whether it’s so-called “Christians” trying to convert others, or so-called “Muslims” crashing planes into buildings. They’re just as evil, and just as bad examples of their faith. David |
| Nate responded:
have fun in your dream world. |
| I responded:
That's a not-unusual type of response I get from Christ-mythers when I ask for evidence (if I get any response at all, that is). Peace, David |
| Nate responded:
Check out this website: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ My dismissive response is not uncommon simply because of your weak logic and my general lack of concern/will to bother to the extent necessary to convince you. However, the guy at the above sight has bothered. There are also several books that have bothered. |
| I responded:
Check out this website: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/ Thanks for the link. I'm getting a good chuckle out of it. What's particularly funny is that his own sources disagree with many of his points. For example, his claim that Nazareth didn't exist in Jesus' day was disproven in the book "A Marginal Jew--Rethinking the Historical Jesus" by John P. Meier, a non-Christian historian whose book the guy uses as a source elsewhere on the site! Meier writes, "...archeology indicates that the village [Nazareth] has been occupied since the 7th century B.C., although it may have experienced a 'refounding' in the 2d century b.c. " Yet it didn't exist in the 1st century a.d., huh? Another interesting thing about the site is that he mentions several other people named "Jesus" who he admits existed, despite the fact that they only have brief mentions in other texts (such as Josephus), well under 0.1% of the evidence we have for Jesus of Nazareth. Talk about different standards of proof! A brief mention in a single text is enough to convince him, while massive amounts of texts, including mentions by non-Christian historians (including Josephus), is no evidence at all. Here's another good one from him. He finds it odd that the NT says Jesus was given a trial at all instead of His just being put immediately to death. Other Christ-mythers have argued the exact opposite! They've claimed that it's odd that Jesus' trial was described as being so brief and unfair. I may write up a full response to this site and put it on my own site. [Update - I did write up a response, which is here - http://www.KingDavid8.com/JesusExisted.html] My dismissive response is not uncommon simply because of your weak logic and my general lack of concern/will to bother to the extent necessary to convince you. Here's something else to keep in mind, though. A lot of Christians visit my site and read what I put on there. I promise you here and now that any evidence you would care to provide to me, I will put on my site for all to see. I reserve the right to respond to it, but I will not alter the evidence you provide (I've made the same offer to other Christ-mythers. You would be the first to accept my offer if you choose to do so). So even if you can't convince me, maybe you could convince some of my visitors. Please keep in mind, though, that I'm talking about "evidence", not "claims". Don't just say "according to so-and-so, such-and-such-deity walked on water/was crucified/was born of a virgin/whatever", but actually point me to a version of the story in which these things happened. Because that's the problem most Christ-mythers make, giving claims that they can't support. I've E-mailed several Christ-myth websites asking them to back up their claims with actual versions of the stories in which these details happen. About 90% never responded. The other roughly 10% responded, but just gave excuses as to why the stories they claim exist can't be found anywhere. However, the guy at the above sight has bothered. There are also several books that have bothered. Like Acharya S.'s? If you haven't seen it, I had a great discussion with her which I put on the page http://www.kingdavid8.com/Letters/LetterJesusHorus.html . She was one of those roughly 10% who responded, but was unable to point me to a single version of the Horus story which gave the details she claims. Even if you find my logic weak, I am at least able to provide links to mythology sites which back up the claims I make about Horus and other pre-Christian deities (even if, as you've demonstrated, the details can differ in alternate versions of the stories). I wonder why Christ-mythers can't do the same? David |
| Nate responded:
Yes, Jesus' trial was short and unfair. So what? His punishment is what the issue is here, not his trial! Being crucified was not part of his trial! The rest of your arguments are just like the above. You're either not grasping the argument or intentionally side-stepping it. |
| I responded:
Yes, Jesus' trial was short and unfair. So what? His punishment is what the issue is here, not his trial! Being crucified was not part of his trial! The portion of the page that I was referring to was this: "Many elements of the 'Passion' make no sense historically. A trial for Jesus, when suspected rebels were habitually arrested and executed by the Romans without trial? Philo of Alexandria ((On the embassy to Gaius, XXXVIII) speaks of Pilate's ' continual murders of people untried and uncondemned.'?" (from http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm ) So, yes, the trial was the issue here. The rest of your arguments are just like the above. You're either not grasping the argument or intentionally side-stepping it. If you want to me how so, please feel free to do so. But if you're claiming that it was the punishment and not the trial that was the issue, when he refers ONLY to the trial, and not to the specific punishment, then I think you're missing the issue. David |