| Hey, there.
On this page: http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm you gave a list of comparisons between Jesus and various pre-Christian deities (I'll put the list below if you need to refer to it quickly). I'm a Christian (former atheist) who is doing research on the Christ-myth claims, looking for confirmation of the claims outside of the world of Christ-mythers. My research, which is ongoing, is being posted at this site: www.KingDavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html I'm looking at the actual stories in ancient mythology or as talked about by scholars not specifically trying to make comparisons to Jesus. By this standard, I'm finding very little confirmation for any of this, and am coming to the conclusion that most of the "comparisons" are simply made up by Christ-mythers and then get passed along by others who are unfamiliar with the given mythologies and then just assume the details are valid. Though I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. So I'm basically wondering if you can give me examples of the details you list for the pre-Christian dieties in writings of people who are not Christ-mythers, or in books or on websites simply giving the mythology and/or stories. If Massey et al found all of these comparisons, where are the actual stories they were looking at where they found the comparisons? I've visited several Christ-myth sites and E-mailed them asking for confirmation along the lines of what I am asking you. Only three have responded so far, and few have offered me any kind of valid evidence to back up their claims. Of the comparisons below, the only ones I'm finding valid are Horus' identification with the Tat Cross (though only briefly - it was primarily identified with Thoth), Horus the Avenger (though it hardly compares to Jesus, who wasn't an avenger - his sword was about division, not vengeance), and others who were born of gods (most of them) and met violent deaths (except for Prometheus and Hermes, who were immortals - and Mithra only died in post-Christian versions of the story), and had tyrants try to kill them in their infancy (only true of Perseus and Hercules, though, and the methods hardly compare to Herod's). So if you can find any others which are clearly more than just Christ-myther claims, I'm certainly willing to look at them. But don't just point me to such-and-such Christ-myther as confirmation. I want evidence that there are more than just Christ-myther claims. Thanks,
David
Your List Osiris, Hercules, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and others compare to the Christian myth. According to Patrick Campbell of The Mythical Jesus, all served as pre-Christian sun gods, yet all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; got born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all got worshiped by "wise men" and had allegedly fasted for forty days. [McKinsey, Chapter 5]
The pre-Christian cult of Mithra had a deity of light and truth, son of the
Most High, fought against evil, presented the idea of the Logos. Pagan Mithraism
mysteries had the burial in a rock tomb, resurrection, sacrament of bread
& water (Eucharist), the marking on the forehead with a mystic mark,
the symbol of the Rock, the Seven Spirits and seven stars, all before the
advent of Christianity. |
| NoBeliefs.com Responded:
You say you're looking at the actual stories in ancient mythology. No you're not. If you had actually read Greek mythology and the stories about Hercules, Apollo, Perseus, etc. you wouldn't be asking for sources. There are so many errors and exclusions on your website, that it shows a shallow reading on your part. The sources you give betray your research. Online encyclopedias only cover a synopsis of the mythological story. You should feel embarrassed. Your "research" on your website has already concluded that there are no confirmations, and yet you cry for sources when I (and others) already gave the sources. Ever hear the term bibliography? You are practicing a form of confirmation bias. You already admitted yourself as a Christian and former atheist. Look, there isn't *any* source that will satisfy you. That's most likely why people are ignoring you, by the way. And since when is division not a form of vengeance? Apparently you don't understand the Biblical Jesus either. The alleged Jesus did not come for peace but to divide. He wanted to fulfill *all* the laws of Scripture (Old Testament), the very source of God's vengeance, and if you believe in the trinity, that makes Jesus the vengeful God very much like the vengeful gods of ancient Mesopotamia.
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may
be fulfilled."
"For it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Just like the vengeance of the mythological gods. So much for your "research." NoBeliefs.com |
| I responded:
You say you're looking at the actual stories in ancient mythology. No
you're not. I've read several versions of the story, and haven't seen those parallels (except for the ones I've already agreed to on the site, of course). If you're saying there are other versions of the story I've missed where those things DO happen (which is quite possible, I admit), I will gladly stand corrected. Just show me those versions, please. Or point me to scholars who aren't specifically trying to draw parallels to Jesus who admit that those things happened. There are so many errors and exclusions on your website, that it shows a shallow reading on your part. The sources you give betray your research. Online encyclopedias only cover a synopsis of the mythological story. You should feel embarrassed. I see. So there are longer versions of the stories where those things happen, but they're left out of the online encylopedias due to the encylopedias only giving a brief synopsis. Gotcha. So which book(s) did you see those things in? Your "research" on your website has already concluded that there are no confirmations, and yet you cry for sources when I (and others) already gave the sources. Ever hear the term bibliography? Of course. Christ-mythers quote other Christ-mythers, which only proves that it's a Christ-myther claim. I'm asking for something more than that. If you say Horus had 12 disciples, don't just point me to such-and-such other Christ-myther who says, "yep, Horus had 12 disciples, all right! Just like Jesus!". Point me to a version of the story in which Horus had 12 disciples, or any scholar who isn't trying to draw a parallel to Jesus who agrees that Horus had 12 disciples. I don't see how that's a lot to ask, and if you are able to do that, I WILL make the correction on my site. You are practicing a form of confirmation bias. You already admitted yourself as a Christian and former atheist. Look, there isn't *any* source that will satisfy you. Of course there are. If you saw my site, you saw that there were SOME parallels I agreed with. Why did I agree with those parallels? Because I saw actual versions of the story in which those things happened, or I found a scholarly site where a scholar who wasn't trying to draw a parallel to Jesus agreed that the event happened. I've also talked to people who follow the religion or deities in question who have corrected misconceptions of mine (though none of them so far were able to confirm parallels). Sources like this clearly have satisfied me on some parallels, and if you can point me to other sources like that, it would satisfy me on other parallels, also. Let me make it clear: Any source that isn't specifically trying to draw a parallel to Jesus WILL satisfy me. That's most likely why people are ignoring you, by the way. Or they know that these things don't actually happen in any of those stories. I have had some people, such as Acharya S, respond to me. But all they ever gave me was other Christ-mythers who agreed with their claims, even after I told them that's NOT what I wanted. No one ever pointed me to an actual version of the story in which those things happen. Will you? Or have you not seen one, either? And since when is division not a form of vengeance? When there's no vengeance involved, of course. You and I are clearly divided on many issues. It's probably very unlikely that we could ever be close friends. And, yes, Jesus is largely the cause of the division between us, wouldn't you agree? But does that mean that I'm trying to get vengeance on you? Or that you're trying to get vengeance on me? I sure hope not. I've also been divided from my family in some ways by becoming a Christian (none of my parents, step-parents, or siblings are Christians - they're all either Jewish, atheist or agnostic), yet none of us are seeking vengeance against one another. Apparently you don't understand the Biblical Jesus either. The alleged Jesus did not come for peace but to divide. Yeah, that's in the verse about the sword, the one I've been talking about, Matthew 10:34. But dividing and avenging aren't the same thing. He wanted to fulfill *all* the laws of Scripture (Old Testament), the very source of God's vengeance, and if you believe in the trinity, that makes Jesus the vengeful God very much like the vengeful gods of ancient Mesopotamia. I don't disagree that God is vengeful at times. I'm just pointing out that vengeance isn't what Jesus' sword is about. It's about division, not vengeance. David |
| I sent the letter just above to NoBeliefs.com twice, and my mailer sent it back to me both times, so it appears that they're blocking my E-mails and the conversation is over. |
| By the way, when I told the skeptic who pointed me to this site that
they'd blocked me, he wrote this to me:
David, Thanks for the response and the reply to the article. I am a skeptic and neither belief nor disbelief this probability, I am simply undecided. However, I think that it is ludicrous that they wouldn't answer you and it shows me something about their effort to actually prove their point, or even its validity. I'm going to check out your response now. John [note from David - the "response" he is referring to is my response to their "Jesus Didn't Exist" page, which is at YesJesusExisted] |