Dear David,

I have knownall along that it (the electrocution of the pracher) was an accident. But according to our ridiculous Bible, all accidents are under the control of our Creator.   Tsunamis, Biblical Flood, plagues etc. Your position above will be considered heretical by many other pastors and theologians. If God does not control accidents than He is not Almighty and Merciful and Loving, because tsunamis and electric shocks are brutal.

Tell me where I err, please

Myron

Just find me the passage saying ALL natural disasters and accidents are caused by God.

David

There are six interesting issues in this interesting discourse:

1) You claim that The Holy Bilble is a myth, at least regarding the Flood.

2) You claim that God is not Almighty and does not cause, or interfere with, natural accidents and disasters.

3) you claim that God is not intervening in disasters like the tsunami, hence the only conclusion is that He lost His Love for mankind.

4) You negate Turn the other cheek to your enemy and thus justify war, but your (apparent) anti-Semitism makes you to be against the war in Iraq, which first of all assured safety of Israel. I am concerned about this attitude because first cousins of my children were born there and are subjects of Arabs vengence.

5) You claim that 2 Samuel 12:31 for long time has been rendered as "putting Ammonites to work" while I claim that this happened to any significant degree only with 1956 post Nuremberg Jerusalem Bible.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW your earlier ,even if insignificant, source. MANY THANKS

6) You write that the issue of the WW II Holocaust is totally immaterial to you. You claim that you will visit your Jewish friends on Thanksgiving. Please tell them that and watch their response. If this is immaterial to you, hit Amazon buttons or OCLC library catalogue and you will see that there are at least 13,000 books written on this subject, the majority of them about Auschwitz. We also have US HMM in Washington (but hardly any monuments for the extermination of American Indians.) You probably also do not care about them. You probably also support slavery like the Bible does. Or you are total heretic and reject the Bible's stand on that issue also.

1) You claim that The Holy Bilble is a myth, at least regarding the Flood.

I believe that the Bible has some parables in it, yes. All Christians do, they just disagree on which parts are parables and which are not.

2) You claim that God is not Almighty and does not cause, or interfere with, natural accidents and disasters.

God is almighty. But having the power to do something doesn't mean that you do it. I have the power to drown cats, but it doesn't mean that I drown cats.

3) you claim that God is not intervening in disasters like the tsunami, hence the only conclusion is that He lost His Love for mankind.

No, that's not the only conclusion.

4) You negate Turn the other cheek to your enemy and thus justify war, but your (apparent) anti-Semitism makes you to be against the war in Iraq, which first of all assured safety of Israel. I am concerned about this attitude because first cousins of my children were born there and are subjects of Arabs vengence.

I'm against all war unless it's in self-defense. And I don't see how our unjustifiably killing thousands of Arabs and thus increasing hostility from the Arab world against America and its interests makes Israel any safer.

5) You claim that 2 Samuel 12:31 for long time has been rendered as "putting Ammonites to work" while I claim that this happened to any significant degree only with 1956 post Nuremberg Jerusalem Bible.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW your earlier, even if insignificant, source. MANY THANKS

I'll do some looking and get back to you, but I think the issue is immaterial since I agree with you that it seems to be talking about putting them to death instead of to work.

6) You write that the issue of the WW II Holocaust is totally immaterial to you. You claim that you will visit your Jewish friends on Thanksgiving. Please tell them that and watch their response.

People who twist my words are a total pet peeve of mine, and I'd like you to quit doing it, please. I did not say that the issue of the WWII holocaust is immaterial to me, and you know it. I said that discussing whether it actually happened, when any reasonable person already knows that it did, it a non-issue. It would be like arguing about whether the sun actually came up yesterday. Why bother?

You probably also support slavery like the Bible does.

No, slavery (at least the modern understanding of it, where people are kidnapped and sold) is punishable by death according to the Bible. The Bible itself refers to indentured servitude, where people willingly became servants to pay off a debt, or to prisoners of war.

David

Dear KD8,

1) You might be right about King David. At the nearby Methodist Church rummage sale I just bought Strong's Concordance for 100 cents, including what seems to be 50 yold photostatic reprint of 19th century original (wow, what a buy!) and The Ryrie Study Bible of New American Standard Translation published in 1976 by Moody Press of Chicago, also for a dollar.

Ten years after the first English translation of the Jerusalem bible, Dr Ryrie, whoever he was, retained the put them under the harrows and through brick-kilns at least 1,500 year old resonable variant but hedged by hedged in the spirit of Please the Israel, post-Nuremberg Trial as follows: "12;31 There are two views as to the meaning of this verse: 1) David imposed hard labor on the captives. ... 2) David had them killed in accordance with cruel Ammonites ways (1 Sam 11;2, Amos 1;13)

Dr. Ryrie had only superficial knowledge of The Bible and history. Chronicles better support the tradition of killing and torturing POWs. I forgot the citation but it refers to riding over the captives with threshing sleds which also were used for harrowing fields.   Moreover he is stupid enough, like millions of Christians, to not relize that if David existed (which now Israelis openly in daily Haaretz doubt), he would not give to Ammonites any heavy iron tool ,because iron at that time was priceless and as strategic as the supercomputers of today!  Would you allow the supercomputers of the NORAD or Defense Intelligence Department of the US Army to be used by the freed Al Quida operatives as cash registers in the American supermarkets? How can you believe in the Holocaust when 3,000 skeletons of Napoleon's soldiers, along with there pocket change, brass shoe lace eyelets, and belt buckles are found with ease today along with mass graves of Polish officers POW shot by largely Jewish NKVD, but mass graves of 3,000,000 victims of Nazi shootings can not be found in the same area? All three the big "Ch" and the WW I small "H" and the WW II big "H" have in common that they are based on eyewitness testimony and lack any reliable and significant proof in the shape of physical evidence. This is why I equailize Christianity with Holocaustianity, as both being a belief systems, one being a eclesiastical and the second being secular, and both being politically martyrologic while the first being eleemosynary (a greek word for alms giving) and the second being belicose (Bosnia, Iraq, etc) and parasitic (see prof Finkelstein's Holocaust industry).

2) the second issue is your heresy of Deism. You no longer pretend to consider the Bible as a myth (I believed that not a hair of my head will fall off withouth Lords approval - you claim the Lord does not control the Nature and accidents ,while most probably you and millions of Christians and Moslems and Jews pray for Lord or saints or prophets intercession against unexpected death and accidents)

3) Lords love and forgivness: Isaiah 54;10, John 3;16 &17;23, Romans 8;31. What kind of love is it if the Almighty does not bother to prevent a tsunami? What kind of forgivness is it if murderers at the moment of death are selectively provided salvation, while infants are dying horrifying deaths from acute leukemia ,and children used to die from crucifyingly painful hemophilia???

4) Thank you for cuing me onto the argument that if there would be no (Deic) creator, the universe should inexorably move toward chaos, while there is a plenty of physical evidence that the Universe and our little world is gravitating to higher and higher levels of organization and complexity. The theory that Nature gravitates to chaos makes no sense. On a small scale, yes, but on the macroscale, thanks to you, I realized that it gravitates to more and more order and speciation and specialization.

I think we agree that The Bible is chauvinistic and genocidal legend.

Ten years after the first English translation of the Jerusalem bible, Dr Ryrie, whoever he was, retained the put them under the harrows and through brick-kilns at least 1,500 year old resonable variant but hedged by hedged in the spirit of Please the Israel, post-Nuremberg Trial as follows: "12;31 There are two views as to the meaning of this verse: 1) David imposed hard labor on the captives. ... 2) David had them killed in accordance with cruel Ammonites ways (1 Sam 11;2, Amos 1;13)

I would still consider translations closer to the source to be more accurate than one from the 19th century, so I'm still (for the moment) leaning towards the idea that the Ammonites were being put to death, not to work. I would like to look more into this, though, when I have some time.

Moreover he is stupid enough, like millions of Christians, to not relize that if David existed (which now Israelis openly in daily Haaretz doubt), he would not give to Ammonites any heavy iron tool ,because iron at that time was priceless and as strategic as the supercomputers of today!

But much simpler to work. I don't see why he's be less hesitant to have POW's use it than he would his own men. It would get the same amount of work done in the same amount of time, but be less toil for his own men. It's not like the POW's would be able to steal the tools and run off.

Would you allow the supercomputers of the NORAD or Defense Intelligence Department of the US Army to be used by the freed Al Quida operatives as cash registers in the American supermarkets?

A big difference between tools of intelligence and tools of work, though.

How can you believe in the Holocaust when 3,000 skeletons of Napoleon's soldiers, along with there pocket change, brass shoe lace eyelets, and belt buckles are found with ease today along with mass graves of Polish officers POW shot by largely Jewish NKVD, but mass graves of 3,000,000 victims of Nazi shootings can not be found in the same area?

Because they were cremated. Mounds of ashes 20 feet deep were found inside Poland, and the population statistics suggest that over 3,000,000 (I think about 3,2000,000) Jewish people living inside Poland disappeared during the time that the concentration camps were in effect. What do you think happened to them?

All three the big "Ch" and the WW I small "H" and the WW II big "H" have in common that they are based on eyewitness testimony and lack any reliable and significant proof in the shape of physical evidence.

No, the evidence for the holocaust is much stronger than mere eyewitness testimony (are we counting the testimony of the nazis themselves in this? They'd have no reason to exaggerate their own figures). We also have huge piles of human ash, piles of eyeglasses, gold teeth, corpses, artificial limbs, lampshades made of human skin, population statistics, gassing records, train records, plus the camps and crematoria, etc. The physical evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the Holocaust having happened. Like I said earlier, the question is what would we expect to see if something happened, and what would we expect to see if it didn't happen. We are seeing exactly what we would expect to see if the Holocaust happened, so any reasonable person would conclude that the holocaust happened.

2) the second issue is your heresy of Deism. You no longer pretend to consider the Bible as a myth (I believed that not a hair of my head will fall off withouth Lords approval - you claim the Lord does not control the Nature and accidents ,while most probably you and millions of Christians and Moslems and Jews pray for Lord or saints or prophets intercession against unexpected death and accidents)

I believe that God is capable of intervening any time in any way He chooses, and that there's nothing wrong with praying for good health and safety. But God isn't Santa Claus, and doesn't grant every wish we make. I believe that God is capable of controlling nature, but that, with few exceptions, He "got the ball rolling" and lets processes work themselves out. There's no reason I can see that God couldn't have personally caused the recent tsunamis, hurricanes, and earthquakes, but I don't believe He did because I can't think of a reason that He would have.

3) Lords love and forgivness: Isaiah 54;10, John 3;16 &17;23, Romans 8;31. What kind of love is it if the Almighty does not bother to prevent a tsunami?

It's love because God gave all people life in the first place, and is willing to forgive any and all sins, no matter what a person has done, so that they can join Him in Heaven for eternity. No tsunami can take that away.

What kind of forgivness is it if murderers at the moment of death are selectively provided salvation,

Providing salvation to people who haven't earned it IS love. If God put up a "sin quota" where once you've done a certain amount of sins, forgiveness can never be within your reach, that wouldn't be loving.

while infants are dying horrifying deaths from acute leukemia ,and children used to die from crucifyingly painful hemophilia???

I believe that suffering, as horrible as it is, increases empathy and love between people. No, I don't see how it all works out, but I don't see suffering as evidence that God is unloving or non-existent when the evidence that He is loving and existent is so overwhelming. The fact of suffering certainly gives us something to think about and question, which we do. Nothing wrong with that.

4) Thank you for cuing me onto the argument that if there would be no (Deic) creator, the universe should inexorably move toward chaos, while there is a plenty of physical evidence that the Universe and our little world is gravitating to higher and higher levels of organization and complexity. The theory that Nature gravitates to chaos makes no sense. On a small scale, yes, but on the macroscale, thanks to you, I realized that it gravitates to more and more order and speciation and specialization.

On the contrary, the universe as a whole is moving towards disorder. On this planet, things are becoming more organized and complex, but, compared to the universe, this planet is the small scale. The only reason things are becoming more complex is that energy from our sun powers processes that keep the world moving - and in the process the sun itself moves closer and closer to burning out. If we didn't have the sun shining down on us, things would move towards disorder VERY quickly.

I think we agree that The Bible is chauvinistic and genocidal legend.

No, I think that practically everything after the Tower of Babel is rooted in history. Babel and earlier may or may not have some sort of historical basis, but I don't overall assume they do. I believe that there probably was a flood at some point in mankind's past that wiped out the majority of the human race, but I think the Noah story is a fictionalization just as the flood myths of other cultures are. And I believe that the Gospels are some of the best and most honest historical documents ever written, and I find them overwhelmingly convincing, leaving little doubt that Jesus of Nazareth was bodily resurrected. And to call a group "genocidal" implies that they were out to destroy a race of people because of their race. In the case of the Israelites, they only tried to wipe out people who were out to destroy them. It was clearly self-defense, not genocidal intent.

Talk to you later,

David

Discussion of the OT or NT with a catholic priest is of no use. By their own admission, 50% of Jesuits are homosexuals and most of them are interested in boys.

Thus it is far more interesting to learn about OT and NT from a Protestant like you.

It just dawned on me that St Peter's attribute should be a sword instead of a key.

This is another NT problem: How JC, the Prince of Peace, allowed St. Peter to carry a sword all the time during JC's last three years of life? What about His admonition to "turn the other cheek"?

JC surely knew that St Peter carried a sword and a sheet (i.e.unconcealed deadly weapon). Is this is what the leading Disciple should do? No wonder Jews rejected JC who was double tongued:

1) he allowed Peter, and maybe other Disciples, to carry a sword

2) In the sermon on the mount JC said twice that "I do not bring you peace, I bring you a sword" Wow, whatta Prince of Peace.

You will respond that I misread His words. In such case why did the Holy Spirit and evangelists botch their job of copy editing and make OT and NT text obtuse even to not-that-simple people like me, and to millions of others who split into at least 400 presently active heresies (denominations). Is not Humphreys correct about it?

Any comments??

This is another NT problem: How JC, the Prince of Peace, allowed St. Peter to carry a sword all the time during JC's last three years of life? What about His admonition to "turn the other cheek"?

Jesus allowed His followers to carry swords to prevent people from attacking them. The swords weren't used to strike back at those who attack them, but so that those who would otherwise attack them would refrain from doing so. So, yes, they did prevent violence. The one time a follower used the sword to cause violence (when Peter attacked the soldiers who were arresting Jesus), Jesus told him to back off and healed the damage Peter did.

JC surely knew that St Peter carried a sword and a sheet (i.e.unconcealed deadly weapon). Is this is what the leading Disciple should do?

I don't have a problem with people carrying weapons to ward off attacks. If I felt that I was in danger of being attacked, I'd have no problem carrying a weapon, myself.

2) In the sermon on the mount JC said twice that "I do not bring you peace, I bring you a sword" Wow, whatta Prince of Peace.

Obviously not talking about a literal sword, since there's no record of Jesus actually bringing one. He just meant that those who followed Him would be persecuted and cut off from others and wouldn't always have a nice, peaceful life.

You will respond that I misread His words. In such case why did the Holy Spirit and evangelists botch their job of copy editing and make OT and NT text obtuse even to not-that-simple people like me, and to millions of others who split into at least 400 presently active heresies (denominations). Is not Humphreys correct about it?

I don't think the texts are obtuse when it comes to the important points. Since they were written in a language you and I don't speak, then they'll lose something in translation, of course, but I don't think that anyone who makes an attempt to figure out what needs to be done to be saved is going to have a problem.

David

Would you consider a courtroom judge who sentences horrible killers to prison to be unloving?

Yes, he usually is.  Yes, I consider this unloving, keeping in mind "turn the other cheek" and the fact that a small percentage of criminals are truly sorry for their crime.  I do not believe in scruples or conscience in 99% of people. Only 50% of murderers are caught in NYC of 2000 homicides per hear.  Nobody over turned himself in from the 1000 who are on the lam.

Incidentally, in an act of unbridled "racism", Daily News publishes once a year a list and photos of the ten most wanted by NYC Police Department. Guess what is the skin color of nine (or some years all) of them?!!! AfroAms are only 30% in NY.

The Amalekites who'd split from the tribe, and the female children, were spared. And besides that, the Amalekites were out to commit genocide on the Israelites, which makes it self-defense.

Sorry, I know very little about Amalekites from the Bible to discuss that except that Jews curse them until today. I do not know who were my grandparents, my history books barely mention the Teutonic Drang nach Ost of 900 years ago but the Jews still hate Amalekites. Astonishing hatefulness. Never forgive, never forget - Gods chosen children. What kind of example did He give us to follow?

On the other hand, look at Ukrainians.  I do not know exactly how many millions of Ukrainians died in the great Famine in the 1930s which was orchestrated by Lazar Kaganowich and his clan of siblings (Rosa became Stalins last fourth Jewish wife) and run by the Tenthousanders, virtually all Jews. But Ukrainians were the only one whose revolution which collapsed the USSR was done without a single blood loss. UNIQUE in world history. And today nobody for the past 13 years is persecuting any perpetrators of the KGB terror. (NKVD changed name to KGB). But 60 years later OSI still spends millions to persecute alleged Nazi criminals.

Look at the revolutions in Africa. South or Central ... pure mayhem documented by videos and instant photos.

Since I believe the flood story is a myth, it hardly matters. But even if it was true, He spared Noah, knowing it would save the humanrace, so there was no risk of extinction.

Heretic, heretic, David8 should be burned on the stake for disbelieving the Holy Bible!!!!

Which just goes to show that God sometimes allows bad things to happen so that good things can result from it. And, again, I believe this is a myth, anyways.

Sophistry and having sex is usually a pleasure. I might be argued if daughters have done it for pleasure of procreation. Children usually go with a crowd and his daughters were probably as bad as their contemporaries

No, those are natural disasters, not cases of divine intervention.

This is what you, a HERETICAL DEIST says. The bible says He is the Lord of creation and not a hair will come off of ones head without His approval. I thought that Bible says that, but do not remember where. This is why everyone prays in dire straights. And if he does not intervene, I think it is another proof of His lack of Love.

Myron: Through parabels Christ told us that those who do not follow Him should be killed.

David: Nope.

It is arguable, and Humphreys has much better arguments than "yep"

Myron: Through St. John Christ told us that those who blasphem against Holy Ghost, should not expect forginvens and are doomed to Hell, eternal darkness.

David: Yeah, those who reject forgiveness won't be forgiven. Kind of obvious, actually.

Not at all obvious. Those who sinned their whole life and rejected forgiveness their whole life are assured that if they repent at the moment of death they will be 'Salvationed.' Look what happened to the right of the Cross. Hardened criminal saved. I guess St John run out of ink to use proper tense . My reading is that those who blasphemed [even once] will end up in Hell.

Tell me exactly what the earliest ones say. I'm not finding any version which talks specifically about old men, women and children.

I already responded in previous letter, but will repeat. "And he did this to all children [people, cities] of Amon". From history we know that it was an ancient international military tradition that if after a few weeks of siege the fortress did not give in than after that all arm bearing age men went under the sword. Because Rabath resisted and had to be taken by force with tramendous causalties of the attackers (about one defenant died to ten attackers - hence the rigid convention of war) it is normal that younger males were killed and only old men women and children remained.

Incidentally, Hitler had an absoulute right to bomb Warsaw in 1939. Idiotically, Warsaw declared itself "Warszawa, twierdza walczaca!" - "Warsaw, fighting fortress". Hitler gave two or three ultimatums for the broken up on the river Bzura Polish Army to evacuate Warsaw but stupid Mayor of Warsaw told them to stay and asked population to resist invasion. The Polish Government already escaped to Romania. Hence Hitler started bombardment. This was the only Polish city which was damaged in 1939. Only one building collpased there during WII and it is not certain if it was not an accidental explosion. Warsaw was the only city bombarded by the Germans.

So there is no doubt that David, if he ever existed, killed old men, women and children. He had the right to kill young men but in his Zionist zeal EXTERMINATED all SURVIVORS!.

Whether the original version referred specifically to putting them to death or to putting them to work isn't made clear. The wording suggests to me that the people are being put to death (being at war, this wouldn't be surprising), but I can see how the wording of the original Hebrew could be taken otherwise. I use the King James, personally, and clearly whoever translated it believed it was describing death. But the translation of their being put to work instead isn't anything new.

Yours are extemporaneous comments. I did the research in depth.   I looked at the 10th century oldest extant Mesoretic Codex Leningradicus. I would say that that single word is not absolutely clear to read but in context there is no doubt about it. There is not doubt in the context of similar text in Chronicles.   Most importantly, Syriac extant bibles are much older and describe the torturing of ammonites and killing them with a different tools and methods. History and archeology of the area and Europe tell us what was happening the defenders of castless and fortresses and besieged cities. This was a good tradition. After three weeks of siege most cities were giving up to prevent legalized massacres.

There is one more point to answer, but I am too busy. Perhaps you could contact Dead Sea scholars or find out on internet (my works at the snail speed of 9,000 bites persecond ) if the 2 Samuel text is in the Dead Sea scrolls. My understanding is that sections are.

David: Would you consider a courtroom judge who sentences horrible killers to prison to be unloving?

Myron: Yes, he usually is.  Yes, I consider this unloving,

On that we disagree, then. I think horrible killers belong in prison to protect innocent people.

keeping in mind "turn the other cheek"

Of course, "turn the other cheek" means to not seek vengeance for crimes committed against you, personally. A courtroom judge is sentencing people for crimes committed to others, and thus has no cause to turn the other cheek. One can only forgive sins committed against one's self, not for sins committed against others.

and the fact that a small percentage of criminals are truly sorry for their crime.

And those who repent of their sins aren't punished by God for them, and only God knows who is truly sorry and who are not. A courtroom judge could be fooled, God can't.

Nobody over turned himself in from the 1000 who are on the lam.

And that's awful. The good news is that you can't stay "on the lam" from God. Eventually, you've either got to repent or face the consequences.

the Jews still hate Amalekites. Astonishing hatefulness. Never forgive, never forget - Gods chosen children. What kind of example did He give us to follow?

Those Amalekites who split from the main group (in other words chose not to be a threat to the Israelites) were spared. I think stopping those who are trying to kill you and sparing those who are not is setting a pretty good example.

Heretic, heretic, David8 should be burned on the stake for disbelieving the Holy Bible!!!!

Ummm...okay. So who do you call about that, by the way? Is there a phone number for reporting heretics for stake-burning? 1-800-HERETIC, maybe?

And one thing I'm curious about, if it were true that my beliefs were heretical, what do you think I should do about that? Should I change what I believe so that it falls in line with what other believes, or should I stay true to myself? Or should I go on believing what I feel makes sense, but keep it to myself?

The bible says He is the Lord of creation and not a hair will come off of ones head without His approval. I thought that Bible says that, but do not remember where.

Me either, but it sounds familiar. But God's approval doesn't mean He causes the hair to fall out, it just means that He allows it to happen.

This is why everyone prays in dire straights. And if he does not intervene, I think it is another proof of His lack of Love.

I think it's proof that God isn't Santa Claus. It's not about having GOD'S will come into line with what WE want, but about OUR will coming into line with what GOD wants.

Myron: Through parabels Christ told us that those who do not follow Him should be killed.

David: Nope.

Myron: It is arguable, and Humphreys has much better arguments than "yep"

If you want to give me the passage, I'll discuss it. I think I know what passage you're talking about, though.

Those who sinned their whole life and rejected forgiveness their whole life are assured that if they repent at the moment of death they will be 'Salvationed.'

Right, and that means that they've stopped blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

My reading is that those who blasphemed [even once] will end up in Hell.

That's not the way most scholars understand it. You can stop blaspheming and accept the Holy Spirit, and you will be saved.

I already responded in previous letter, but will repeat. "And he did this to all children [people, cities] of Amon".

Surely you don't take that to mean that they put babies to work, so it must mean that they did this to those who were capable of doing the work.

From history we know that it was an ancient international military tradition that if after a few weeks of siege the fortress did not give in than after that all arm bearing age men went under the sword. Because Rabath resisted and had to be taken by force with tramendous causalties of the attackers (about one defenant died to ten attackers - hence the rigid convention of war) it is normal that younger males were killed and only old men women and children remained.

There's nothing suggesting that the Israelites followed this tradition, from what I can see, so you seem to be making an assumption here.

So there is no doubt that David, if he ever existed, killed old men, women and children. He had the right to kill young men but in his Zionist zeal EXTERMINATED all SURVIVORS!.

Whether that happened in this event is debatable. We know that with the Amalekites, the Israelites spared the female children, but killed the male children because they knew that the male children would grow up to be a threat. So if he got rid of the Ammonites it probably was more about removing a potential threat than "zionist zeal".

Yours are extemporaneous comments. I did the research in depth.   I looked at the 10th century oldest extant Mesoretic Codex Leningradicus. I would say that that single word is not absolutely clear to read but in context there is no doubt about it. There is not doubt in the context of similar text in Chronicles.   Most importantly, Syriac extant bibles are much older and describe the torturing of ammonites and killing them with a different tools and methods.

I'd like to see what those ones say, then. And I'd say the big question is what the Hebrew texts specifically say, because the earlier translations might have gotten things wrong. While I tend to favor translations closest to the source, personally (meaning the earlier translations would be favored), others think that modern translators have a larger overview of the context and events, and thus favor modern translations. In this event, it really boils down to what was intended by the people who actually wrote the words in those days.

There is one more point to answer, but I am too busy. Perhaps you could contact Dead Sea scholars or find out on internet (my works at the snail speed of 9,000 bites persecond ) if the 2 Samuel text is in the Dead Sea scrolls. My understanding is that sections are.

According to this page: http://www.biblequery.org/2sam.htm 2 Sam 12:31 is in the dead sea scrolls. I can't seem to find anything saying what the DSS versions say, though.

David

David, I am not Biblical scholar. But in my Catholic upbringing I learned that all catastrophies and plagues are Act of God - Boza wola in Polish. It is also American legal idiom "Act of God".   How about Egyptian plagues????? If you do not believe in the Bible and consider most or part of it as a myth?

Conversly if He does not control major disasters He is not Almighty or All-caring.

David, I am not Biblical scholar. But in my Catholic upbringing I learned that all catastrophies and plagues are Act of God - Boza wola in Polish. It is also American legal idiom "Act of God".

Some do believe that. If I could find a logical reason to believe it, I'd give it serious consideration. But most natural disasters seem to be too unfocused, too purposeless, for me to believe that God purposely sent them. I can see why God would allow them to happen, but I can't see why God would feel the need to cause them.

How about Egyptian plagues????? If you do not believe in the Bible and consider most or part of it as a myth?

No, I believe God sent the plagues, since there was a purpose to them. I also believe that He caused the sun to darken at Jesus' death, since there was a purpose to that, as well. But saying that some natural events are caused by God doesn't mean that ALL natural events are caused by God.

I admit, I could be wrong about the tsunami and Kashmir earthquake. There's no reason God could not have caused them. He may well have. But since I can't imagine why He would, I don't believe He did.

Conversly if He does not control major disasters He is not Almighty or All-caring.

I disagree. I believe that our knowing that our lives could end at any time makes us appreciate our own lives, and the lives of our fellow man, more than we would otherwise. I believe that it increases love and empathy, and increases our appreciation for the lives of ourselves and our fellow man. No, I'm not saying that the tsunami and Kashmir alone were "worth it", that they improved the quality of life in the short run, but the fact that natural disasters happen does make us appreciate life more.

David

First I honestly misunderstood you about the Big H (the 6,000,000 WW II Holocaust distinct from little h i.e.6,000,000 plus 800,000 holocasut of WW I promulgated by the Hon. Martin Glynn Governor of NY in 1919) [if you will provide me your fax # I will send you this article from The American Hebrew and you can show it to your hosts during Thanksgiving].   Big H and little h are as much sarcasms as the JC for Jesus Christ. I apologize. I understand that you consider any discussion about the Big H immaterial.

[portion edited out here per Myron's request]

First I honestly misunderstood you about the Big H (the 6,000,000 WW II Holocaust distinct from little h i.e.6,000,000 plus 800,000 holocasut of WW I promulgated by the Hon. Martin Glynn Governor of NY in 1919) [if you will provide me your fax # I will send you this article from The American Hebrew and you can show it to your hosts during Thanksgiving].   Big H and little h are as much sarcasms as the JC for Jesus Christ. I apologize. I understand that you consider any discussion about the Big H immaterial.

Sorry, I don't have a fax machine at home. I have one at work, but I can only use it for work purposes. I hadn't even heard that there was a claim of 6 million Jewish deaths during WWI. The sites you linked me to all seemed to be about questioning the WWII Holocaust, though, unless I misunderstood them. I know the IHR one was about the WWII Holocaust.

David

-----quote from news article----

Robertson Warns Pa. Town of Disaster

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. - Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson warned residents of a rural Pennsylvania town Thursday that disaster may strike there because they "voted God out of your city" by ousting school board members who favored teaching intelligent design.

All eight Dover, Pa., school board members up for re-election were defeated Tuesday after trying to introduce "intelligent design" — the belief that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power — as an alternative to the theory of evolution.

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city,"   Robertson said on the Christian Broadcasting Network's "700 Club."

Eight families had sued the district, claiming the policy violates the constitutional separation of church and state. The federal trial concluded days before Tuesday's election, but no ruling has been issued.

Later Thursday, Robertson issued a statement saying he was simply trying to point out that "our spiritual actions have consequences."

"God is tolerant and loving, but we can't keep sticking our finger in his eye forever," Robertson said. "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them."

Robertson made headlines this summer when he called on his daily show for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. He has also said that feminism encourages women to "kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."

Myron,

You should know that I consider disagreeing with Pat Robertson to be a badge of honor. I can't stand the guy.

David

A big difference between tools of intelligence and tools of work, though.

Not at all. First intellingence and knowledge of people went up even among Arabs. Secondly they could use axes for a rebellion or acts of subreptitious assassination of their lords. Thirdly, old men, women and children make very poor workers. Most importantly the iron in 1000 BC was an expensive novelty. King Saul had to shine his bronze armor because there was not enough of iron even for the king. Finally, in the early Iron stage the technology was such that only rare and iron arrowtips was possible to make, not massive 18 pound picks necessary in road building or 24 lbs sledgehammers, Get real.

Incidentally, I worked in the Middle East twice, each time for three months a few decades ago, I found them even more stupid and slow-witted than our AfroAms but far more tenacious. Example? Forty years ago free University of Petroleum was built in Daharan Saudi Arabia, with money not to spare for salaries of the western faculty. The aim was to free Arabia of dependence on foreign experts. Today they are as much dependent of the foreign american and British know-how as they were then. For this reason I support Israel which provides brain to peoples who have only muscles. Osrael should be a blessing for the Arabs, but they are so primitive that jelousy overrides everything. They can't stand that Jews turned desert into garden in mere 20 years, and they could not do it in 20 centuries. Jews took less then one percent of surface of the desert the Arabs owned. Would you get angry if your neighbor took half an acre of your forest and easily turned in into garden. I would admire and praise him and ask to teach me how to do it. But I am an oddball.

Myron: How can you believe in the Holocaust when 3,000 skeletons of Napoleon's soldiers, along with there pocket change, brass shoe lace eyelets, and belt buckles are found with ease today along with mass graves of Polish officers POW shot by largely Jewish NKVD, but mass graves of 3,000,000 victims of Nazi shootings can not be found in the same area?

David: Because they were cremated. Mounds of ashes 20 feet deep were found inside Poland, and the population statistics suggest that over 3,000,000 (I think about 3,2000,000) Jewish people living inside Poland disappeared during the time that the concentration camps were in effect. What do you think happened to them?

Wrong. According to the Jewish historians and USHMM, the Soviets advanced so fast that the Germans did not have time to cremate them!!! About 3,200,000 Polish Jews, I thought like you do, until 1968 when one third of my class ended up in the USA . While in high school I knew of only two Jews by chance, both whom I befriended. Only because I frequented them at home did I know that their parents were Jewish. All others had Slavic names and surnames apparently Slavicized en mass in l945-48. Countless died due to "the tyranny of war" to use the WW I description of the little "h" along with other peoples. I estimate that from the remainder, one third emigrated to Israel, one third to the West and one third remained in Poland. Post war emigration to the West, England, Germany and USA shows how little patriotism/nationalism there was among the Jews even after 1945.

No, the evidence for the holocaust is much stronger than mere eyewitness testimony (are we counting the testimony of the nazis themselves in this? They'd have no reason to exaggerate their own figures)

David8, you are dragging me into holocaust discussion which I am too busy for at present. Did you forgot Abu Gharib??? Commendant of Auschwitz R. Hoess was tortured so much that he admited to gassing 3,500,000 Jews. SS Doctor w. Schuebe was beaten so much that he concocted a Science Fiction story of killing 120,000 Jews with morphine at his Annihilation Institiute in Kiev (now spelled Kyiv) because his interogators, Jewish of course because Americans did not speak German, did not get the mass shooting or exploding mines as yet. For this reason the story of Annihilation Institute published in the NYTimes on May 5, 1945 is intensely suppressed until present. SS man Kurt Gerstein confessed that 44,000,000 of mostly Jews were gassed at Belzec camp alone!

We also have huge piles of human ash, piles of eyeglasses, gold teeth, corpses, artificial limbs, lampshades made of human skin, population statistics, gassing records, train records, plus the camps and crematoria, etc. The physical evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the Holocaust having happened.

The only correct is the fact that a few tonnes of mostly Jewish hair are extant at the Auschwitz museum and similar quantity of shoes at majdanek camp. When I grew up in [non-U.S. location withheld per Myron's request] in 1940s and 1950s my barber carefully swiped his floor and put my hair in a big bag which then was sent to recycling center. Ceratine form human hair and horses hoofs was used as plastic because it is thermoplastic. Nazis were maniacal recyclers, even before the war. Your mother was also. She was collecting drippings from her frying pen because fat was used for making nitroglycerine. Wartime NYTimes ran an add about patriotic saving of fat dripping almost every day! Orthodox historians of the big H now agree that crematoria were so poorly made that the majority of coprses were burned in open pits and the ashes were dumped in the rivers. You are repeating the line of irresponsible journalists. The largest magazine in the world, Parade, with editorial offices in NYC, three years ago cited a big H historian as claiming that 12,000,000 Jews lost their live in the big H. Parade is a weekly insert to about 34,000,000 copies of daily newspapers throught the USA. Not a single reader or big H scholar objected to this number when I checked with them three months and six months later. No errata was printed either.

[Portion edited out per Myron's request]

There's no reason I can see that God couldn't have personally caused the recent tsunamis, hurricanes, and earthquakes, but I don't believe He did because I can't think of a reason that He would have.

PAT ROBERTSON DOES!, Pat robertson does! Pat robertson does!!! David8, you are a Protestant megalomainiac. You belittle God and you think that you are smarter than Pat Robertson. You are as heretical as me who thinks that the last Pope and many before him and the present one were homosexuals. Did you see how beautiful the secretary of the Benny the XVIth (or whatever is His number) is? His secretary is a true handsome and young Toy Boy. All young Catholic women love him! He is like mirror image of Dr. Kildare [aka Chamberlain} who got out of the closet about two years ago.

It's love because God gave all people life in the first place, and is willing to forgive any and all sins, no matter what a person has done,so that they can join Him in Heaven for eternity. No tsunami can take that away.

I can see you falling on your knees on the sand of Phuket Beach and raising your hands and screaming "Gentle Jesus, come and take me to your kingdom!" instead running away as Missy Tilly Smith have done. She must be an atheist, but I think she had Cross hung from her neck in NYC? On serious note I think your response is rushed. "forgive any and all sins" you wrote today out of convinience but two days ago you wrote about that blasphemy against Holy Ghost is unforgivable.

Providing salvation to people who haven't earned it IS love. If God put up a "sin quota" where once you've done a certain amount of sins, forgiveness can never be within your reach, that wouldn't be loving.

Concept of Purgatory takes care of the above irrational sophistry.

I believe that suffering, as horrible as it is, increases empathy and love between people. No, I don't see how it all works out, but I don't see suffering as evidence that God is unloving or non-existent when the evidence that He is loving and existent is so overwhelming.  The fact of suffering certainly gives us something to think about and question, which we do. Nothing wrong with that.

Same kind of logic when looking at four tones of human hair destined for recycling in pre-plastic era is a proof of industrial homicidal gassings. It's a similar type of disagreement as when three indivuduals look at an ink blot and one says it depicts the Devil, the other an Angel and the third claims it is an randomly shaped ink blot.

On the contrary, the universe as a whole is moving towards disorder.  On this planet, things are becoming more organized and complex, but, compared to the universe, this planet is the small scale. The only reason things are becoming more complex is that energy from our sun powers processes that keep the world moving - and in the process the sun itself moves closer and closer to burning out. If we didn't have the sun shining down on us, things would move towards disorder VERY quickly.

I am not that good at astronomy but if the Black Hole theory is correct, and I think it is, the stars collapse just to emerge on the other side of the space "warp" to be "Born Again" as a new star. Incidentally I believe the Einstein theory of Relativity to be one of passing scientific/political fads, as most of scientific theories are [e.g. Lysenkoism in USSR] unlike that of Copernicus and Darwin. Darwin's and Copernicus' are supported by observations of everyday life (so many subspecies of dog, tides and webs correlate with the distance of the Moon etc). Sure, mass of stars deflects light but this does not mean that not explain the twin paradox as PolCorect scientists claim.

On the other hand I firmly believe that in the future, theoretically we will be able to see the past provided that future generations will develope supersensitive EMag or TV receptors. Imagine a dinosaur in a desert. His image is beamed into space. Its picture hits some cold planet of star 30,000.000 light years away.  The picture gets reflected and dispersed from it. 30 million light years later, it arrives on Earth and is detected with super sensitive TV receiver.  At that moment Clio the Muse of History, the most prejudicial of all Muses, dies in shame.

And to call a group "genocidal" implies that they were out to destroy a race of people because of their race. In the case of the Israelites, they only tried to wipe out people who were out to destroy them. It was clearly self-defense, not genocidal intent.

You are wrong my friend, Albanians took over Serbian (Slavic) land of  Kosovo but Albright (I forgot her Polish-Jewish maiden name) decide that Serbians committed genocide. In March 1933 English newspaper in front page page-width headlines scram "JUEDA DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY'.   Every 5&10 store in US and especially NYC was boycotted for months for selling German goods. A quarter million well-dressed in straw hats "New Yorkers" walked every three weeks from March until summer from Madison Square Garden until the NYC townhall in Wall street area every Thursday in 1933 at the hight of unemployment to protest Hitler.

Then everything stopped in the summer when Untermayer returned from London. Read and see the crowds in the photos on the microfilms of the NY Times at your local library. The only document which can not be forged (because micofilms of it are all over) is the newspaper the only document which rarly prints the truth because it prints what the owner pays them to do. Hence Serbians and Nazis were reciprocating in self defense. You are duplicitous David 8.

In regard to Noahs Flood, I agree with you and think you should read so titled book by Columbia University marine geologists W Ryan and W. Pitmann. I think they are correct.

If the Flood story is a myth why the Resurection story is not a Myth??? Especially that many early Christians, the most pious, did not believe in it and formed on this basis heresies. Why for centuries was the symbol of Christianity the fish but not the Cross??? Do not give me the line about secrecy. Personal devotional articles did not have to be secret.   We are told that martyrs were dying for Christ and would not disown or refute Him, but were afraid to carry a cross under their cloth? I think the story of Resurrection was for many centuries considered as an inspirational story and not as reality. Same way as the story of St George, now demoted and about to lose his status as the saint of England,

Why then did the israeli Haaretz agree that the King David and Solomon stories are inspirational myths? Are the the new generation of Israeli archeologists self-hating Jews? I doubt it. I think they are enlightened and courageous individuals. We European Christians should start to emulate them.

[portion edited per Myron's request]

Secondly they could use axes for a rebellion or acts of subreptitious assassination of their lords.

Throughout history, people have always put prisoners to work using tools. As long as they are properly guarded and supervised while doing the work, risk of using them for rebellion or assassination is small.

Thirdly, old men, women and children make very poor workers.

I'm still not seeing any specific reference in any of the translations making reference to old men, women and children.

Most importantly the iron in 1000 BC was an expensive novelty.

Right, but assuming the tools existed (which the text doesn't leave in doubt) it's no more expensive to have POW's using them than it is to have the Israelites themselves using them.

Finally, in the early Iron stage the technology was such that only rare and iron arrowtips was possible to make, not massive 18 pound picks necessary in road building or 24 lbs sledgehammers, Get real.

Again, the text doesn't leave any doubt that the tools existed. Since the texts appear to have been written roughly the same time as the events (there's no strong evidence of interpolations) is stands to reason that the tools being described really existed.

According to the Jewish historians and USHMM, the Soviets advanced so fast that the Germans did not have time to cremate them!!!

What on Earth are you talking about? Those camps were open for years. Auschwitz was open from 1940 to 1945, IIRC. That's plenty of time to cremate people when it only took about a half hour or so.

I estimate that from the remainder, one third emigrated to Israel, one third to the West and one third remained in Poland. Post war emigration to the West, England, Germany and USA shows how little patriotism/nationalism there was among the Jews even after 1945.

Yet there are still around six million who disappeared altogether.

David8, you are dragging me into holocaust discussion which I am too busy for at present.

Yeah, same here. I really didn't want to get into one at all. Let's call it off here. If you're interested at some point later on, there is a site responding to the IHR's charges at http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html

PAT ROBERTSON DOES!, Pat robertson does! Pat robertson does!!!

Who cares what Pat Robertson does?

David8, you are a Protestant megalomainiac. You belittle God and you think that you are smarter than Pat Robertson.

I don't belittle God, I just refuse to blame Him for things that I don't believe He is responsible for.

But I do think that I am smarter than Pat Robertson, yes. I think my cats are probably smarter than Pat Robertson, for that matter.

You are as heretical as me who thinks that the last Pope and many before him and the present one were homosexuals.

I have no idea, and no interest in knowing, which popes are/were homosexuals. I don't even care if Priests (Catholic or Protestant) are homosexuals, as long as they don't actually molest kids. Those who do molest kids need to be kicked out of their positions and thrown in prison and I'm disappointed that the church has been hesitant to do so.

I can see you falling on your knees on the sand of Phuket Beach and raising your hands and screaming "Gentle Jesus, come and take me to your kingdom!"

Actually, I'm just sitting at my computer, typing.

I think your response is rushed. "forgive any and all sins" you wrote today out of convinience but two days ago you wrote about that blasphemy against Holy Ghost is unforgivable.

Because blasphemy against the Holy Ghost means refusing to accept forgiveness.

Concept of Purgatory takes care of the above irrational sophistry.

I don't believe in Purgatory.

Incidentally I believe the Einstein theory of Relativity to be one of passing scientific/political fads,

I definitely think he was on to something. Whether he was truly "correct", I don't know, but he was at least pointing in the right direction.

On the other hand I firmly believe that in the future, theoretically we will be able to see the past provided that future generations will develope supersensitive EMag or TV receptors. Imagine a dinosaur in a desert. His image is beamed into space. Its picture hits some cold planet of star 30,000.000 light years away.  The picture gets reflected and dispersed from it. 30 million light years later, it arrives on Earth and is detected with super sensitive TV receiver.

I agree. Technically, every single moment, we are seeing into the past. Even if you look at someone who is standing a foot away from you, you are seeing them as they were one-billionth of a second ago (or something like that). I think we're seeing a sun as it was fourteen minutes ago, not as it is right now. So if we could find some way to look at our own planet from a great distance, we'd be seeing into its distant past. Wouldn't it be cool to focus on the Middle East around 32 A.D. and determine once and for all whether Jesus was resurrected?

If the Flood story is a myth why the Resurection story is not a Myth???

Because it's unlikely that the earliest Christians, the ones who would have known whether it was a myth or not, would have suffered the persecution under Nero had they been able to get out of it by saying "oh, that Jesus thing? Yeah, that's just a myth!" Christianity wouldn't have survived the 1st century had there not been truth to it. Also, treating the Gospel accounts the same way we would treat other writings that we would suspect of being either history or myth, they stand up much better as history. We are seeing what we would expect to see if the authors were writing true accounts, not what we would expect to see if they were writing a made-up story.

Especially that many early Christians, the most pious, did not believe in it and formed on this basis heresies.

The ones who didn't believe in it were ones who weren't there to know whether it happened. Those who'd been closest to Jesus in those days, even those who were skeptical, like Thomas and James, ended up believing.

Why for centuries was the symbol of Christianity the fish but not the Cross???

Both were.

We are told that martyrs were dying for Christ and would not disown or refute Him, but were afraid to carry a cross under their cloth?

I think it took a while for the cross to catch on since, prior to the resurrection, crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die.

I think the story of Resurrection was for many centuries considered as an inspirational story and not as reality.

The evidence says otherwise. Paul wrote that if the resurrection didn't happen, if it was just a myth, then their faith was in vain. That's not what one would write if they considered it merely an inspirational story.

Why then did the israeli Haaretz agree that the King David and Solomon stories are inspirational myths?

Some believe that, most don't.

David

David,

1) An average British Bobby beats Christ as a Prince of Peace! We should replace duplicitous Christianity with Holocaustianity and Bobbyism which would nicely replaced it with a true 'martyrologism' [veneration of suffering] and pacifism. British policemen for decades did not carry guns. Bobbies prevent (even today most are unarmed) "violence" against others and themself without resorting to arms. Daily, on their beat they 'beat' JC's and D8's concepts of peace flat.

You correctly noticed that I overlooked the 'fact' that JC restored the cut off ear, hence the turn the other cheek dictum was preserved in this case but not in the case of the massacre of the 6,000 (?) innocent swine driven off the cliff (if the cliff was there, which Humphreys doubts). However, no forgivness for the blasphemers of the Holy Ghost still stands.

2) You are dead wrong that Bible is uncontroversial on major points. Most Ch. denominations disagree about the major points such as Trinity because Bible is a compendium of chauvinistic Jewish legends.

3) You agreed that it contains myths or improbable parabels, hence it is not the "Holy" Bible or even truthful Bible, while 66,6% of Protestants disagree with you. If the Holy Bible is not holy on some points we have to establish existance of Christ on something more than the prepondarance of oral evidence of alleged eyewitnesses or their writing about 100 years later or as it is said in regard to the Big H "convergence of evidence".

One fingerpring left at the crime of scene collapsses elaborate house of cards of "preponderance of oral testimony" or "convergence of evidence." One wartime air-photo of the Nazi concentration camp showing puny mass grave or one forensic exploration of a mine shaft in Kosovo showing absence of 6,000 men women and children collapses the entire martyrological group fantasy. One word with which Christ anachronistically tells the crowd that He is bringing them "cross" instead suffering or misexpresses Himself r-e-p-e-a-t-e-d-l-y that He brings them a sword instead martyrdom proves that He lost, at least temporarily, the control of His Aramaic tongue and/or the Holy Ghost lost the control over the Evnagelists hand.

Once the Holy Bible or even parts of it are considered suspect the main points are for revisionist discussion, what Humphrey is doing for better or worse, and you dabble in it afraid to deny it until the historicity of Jesus is proven. Conversely, if you can not come to the grips with it, like I could not for decades, you will go one with inventing little sophistries on behalf of the Jesus Christ. I think that if one is so insecure that can not live without Religion he/she should reverse to the Religion of our Ancestors which is much older than Big Ch.

We live in the year 7,514 of Ridna Vira (Ukrainian Native Faith) which nearly aritmetically coincides with the combined C-14 and mass spectrometry dating of the break throguh of Bosphorous and innudation of the Black freshwater Lake or Southern Ukraine with Mediteraanean waters about 7.550 +/- 20 years ago. Read the book "Noahs Flood" by Columbia Univ marine geologists W Ryan and W Pittman, published 2001, the cause of the dispersal of Proto-ukrainians ('Indo-Europeans") and perhaps the Noahs Flood myths. Or his Black Sea, flood on Google.

Today, I am going to work around my house and wish you good Sunday. Think our ancestors called it Sunday and not like half dumb Latins Domenica. Even Constantine called it day of the invincible Sun !!! This tells you about the sincerity of his Conversion. And I got it not from Humphreys who refuses to see any of the great redeming values of the Big Ch today.

Myron

1) An average British Bobby beats Christ as a Prince of Peace! We should replace duplicitous Christianity with Holocaustianity and Bobbyism which would nicely replaced it with a true 'martyrologism' [veneration of suffering] and pacifism. British policemen for decades did not carry guns. Bobbies prevent (even today most are unarmed) "violence" against others and themself without resorting to arms. Daily, on their beat they 'beat' JC's and D8's concepts of peace flat.

They also live in a much more peaceful society than Jesus lived in. Would you recommend that policemen in high crime areas like New York City, Detroit, Los Angeles and Chicago go around unarmed?

2) You are dead wrong that Bible is uncontroversial on major points. Most Ch. denominations disagree about the major points such as Trinity because Bible is a compendium of chauvinistic Jewish legends.

No, most Christian denominations agree that there is a trinity. Only a few don't.

3) You agreed that it contains myths or improbable parabels, hence it is not the "Holy" Bible or even truthful Bible

A parable isn't an untruth or unholy. When Jesus spoke of the prodigal son and the sower of seeds, He was speaking in parables. When David spoke of "walking through the valley of the shadow of death", he wasn't speaking of a literal valley. That doesn't mean it's a lie and should be discounted.

while 66,6% of Protestants disagree with you.

And all of them agree that there are parables in the Bible. They only disagree on which stories are parables and which ones are not. But getting meaning from a story is more important than whether you take it literally.

If the Holy Bible is not holy on some points

I never said it's unholy on points.

One word with which Christ anachronistically tells the crowd that He is bringing them "cross" instead suffering

Since Jesus knew what was coming, and He's the one speaking, there's no reason to suppose it's an anachronism.

or misexpresses Himself r-e-p-e-a-t-e-d-l-y

When did He ever misexpress Himself?

He lost, at least temporarily, the control of His Aramaic tongue

Not sure I'm getting your point here. He warned them that many of them would suffer, and they did.

and/or the Holy Ghost lost the control over the Evnagelists hand.

The Holy Ghost gives guidance, but doesn't exert control over what people do. If someone decides to do something God doesn't like, God won't force them to stay in line. If He did, then there would be no point in free will.

Once the Holy Bible or even parts of it are considered suspect

I don't find it suspicious that Jesus, or the Biblical authors, used fictional stories to make points. It was quite common in those days, and it still is today.

you dabble in it afraid to deny it until the historicity of Jesus is proven.

The historicity of Jesus (the idea that He really existed) has overwhelming evidence to support it. Even among non-Christians, most believe He at least existed.

I think that if one is so insecure that can not live without Religion he/she should reverse to the Religion of our Ancestors which is much older than Big Ch.

I lived just fine without religion until I was 27, at which point I became logically convinced that the resurrection of Jesus is historical fact. If someone could give me any kind of evidence that it isn't, I'll weigh it against the positive evidence, and if I become logically convinced that Jesus wasn't resurrected, I'll do just fine living without it once again.

David