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Tat Tvam Asi's 'Evidence' - Page 1

Tat Tvam Asi, a member of the FreeThoughtNation Forums, has become the first person ever to make an attempt to meet my Copycat Challenge, where I offer up to $1000 to anyone who can provide evidence for even half of the mythicist claims for any one deity.  I launched this challenge back in 2008.

As a reminder, one must present evidence for all of the claims to win the full $1000, but if one can provide evidence for at least half, they will win a corresponding percentage of the money (meaning if you provide evidence for 70% of the claims, you would win $700)

The types of evidence I allow are:
-The stories where these things happen, provided they're generally believed to be pre-Christian.
-Pre-Christian images clearly showing these details.
-Information from scholarly sources, such as university-level scholars, peer-reviewed journals, or mainstream mythology books or websites.

Tat Tvam Asi attemps to meet the challenge using, almost exclusively, university-level scholars, and using the 21 items on the Horus list, meaning he must provide evidence for 11 of the Horus claims. 

I was responding to these claims in the forum where he posted the evidence, but after I'd posted responses to six of the eleven 'proofs', they locked the forum, leaving me unable to do any further responding. So I will do respond here, instead.

I will post all of the evidence Tat provided, unedited, to this page.  Then I will respond after each set of evidence.  Where I quote Tat, I will use italics.

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1. Born of a Virgin - already conceded by KD8 after a year of insisting that it wasn't true:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3206&start=165

KD8 wrote:

"The reason I concede is that a few months ago I debated a mythicist who pointed out to me that Bob Becking (Utrech University), Pieter Willem van der Horst (Utrech University) and Karel van der Toorn (University of Amsterdam) said that Isis was a virgin mother in their book "Dictionary of Dieties and Demons in the Bible". Since these are university-level scholars, I accept them as evidence for the claim, per the rules of my challenge, and posted this information on my website (see here: http://www.kingdavid8.com/_full_article: ... 2b2b162e97)."


"The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)" ...

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”

- Christ in Egypt, page 152

* The Pyramid Texts are around 4,400 years old.

“The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus].”
- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist, Christ in Egypt, 120

My response:

I did indeed concede this one, but am only conceding that there is some evidence to support this, not that Isis was definitely considered a virgin mother per pre-Christian mythology. I always allow the words of university-level scholars as evidence, per my challenge.

However, it should be pointed out that there is no version of the Horus story in which his mother is clearly stated to be a virgin, nor do most university-level scholars believe she was. She was married, with no evidence she and Osiris were abstinent, and Horus is sexually conceived in most versions of the story.

And the word “hwn.t” is a general word for young women (commonly translated as "lass" or "maiden") and does not exclusively refer to a woman who has never had sex.

But, yes, Tat has met the challenge for this one, so he currently has met 1 item out of 21, only needing to provide evidence for 10 more before he wins my challenge. So let's go on.

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2. Born in a cave/manger

 In "On Mankind: Their Origin and Destiny," Arthur Thomson summarizes the story of the baby sun at the winter solstice, who was born of a virgin mother, specifically as applied to Horus and Isis:

"The Egyptians did in fact celebrate at the winter solstice the birth of the son of Isis (Plut. De Iside), and the delivery of the goddess who had brought this young child into the world, feeble and weak, and in the midst of the darkest night. This child, according to Macrobius, was the god of light, Apollo, or the sun, painted with his head shorn of his beaming hair, his head shaved, and with only a single hair left. By this, says Macrobius, the dimness of the light at the winter solstice, and the shortness of the days as well as the darkness of the deep cave in which this god seemed to be born, and from which he issued forth to rise in the direction of the northern hemisphere and the summer solstice, in which he reassumed his dominion and his glory, was indicate..." (Macrob. Sat. 1. I. cap. xxi)

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection (CIE), 111

Arthur Dyot Thomson, M.A. of Balliol College, Oxford, page 46

Link

University professor Dr. David Leeming:

"It was believed the evening sun penetrated a cave in the west, and over a period of twelve hours passed through the underworld from which it emerges the next morning, regenerated."

Link

Horus is the sun born in the morning, he thus emerges from the underworld, which is a CAVE. The manger concept can be found in the Epiphanius material vis-a-vis the virgin Kore. That can be tied into the baby sun-god Sokar, identified with Horus, who is brought out of the temple each year in an "ark" or "manger."

(Dr. David Adams Leeming, professor emeritus of English and comparative literature at the University of Connecticut)

Arthur Thomson and David Leeming are indeed university-level scholars, and thus are considered valid sources, per the challenge. However, neither one of them is saying that Horus was born in a cave per pre-Christian mythology.

Thomson is referencing Macrobius, a 5th-century AD Roman who wrote about Roman lore and even conflates Horus with Apollo here. Since many pre-Christian deities ended up taking on the characteristics of Jesus, and other religious figures, after Jesus' time, Macrobius cannot be considered evidence of what pre-Christian people believed of Horus. All evidence says that the Egyptians believed Horus to have been born in a swamp.

As for Leeming, all he's describing is the sun passing into the underworld at night, where it draws energy from Osiris before it begins its journey aboveground. Leeming makes no mention of the sunrise equaling Horus' birth, or even of Horus being born every day, as Tat suggests at the end.

Of course, it should also be noted that there's no direct evidence saying Jesus was born in a cave. He may or may not have been, since caves were sometimes used as mangers. But the challenge is only about whether mythicists are correct about Horus having been born in a cave, and there is no evidence that pre-Christian people believed he was.

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3. Birth announced by a star in the East

- "At PT 593:1636a/M 206, Sirius’s announcement of Osiris is also discussed in terms of the god spreading his “seed” or “semen” upon Isis in order to create Horus..."

- CIE, 202

Regarding the role of Sirius/Sothis in Egyptian mythology, in The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, Egyptologist James Allen states:

"Sothis (spdt "Sharp"). The morning star, Sirius ... The star's rising was also seen as a harbinger of the sunrise and therefore associated with Horus in his solar aspect, occasionally specified as Horus in Sothis (hrw jmj spdt), Sothic Horus (hrw spdtj), or Sharp Horus (hrw spd)."

- CIE, 201

In addition, Pyramid Text 593:1636b/M 206 states: "Horus the pointed has come forth from thee, in his name of 'Horus who was in Sothis.'" "Horus in Sothis," therefore, refers to when the sun rises with Sirius. Thus, in ancient texts we find the birth of Horus the sun associated with the star in the east.

Egyptologist Dr. J. Gwyn Griffiths concurs that "the inundation of the Nile was often connected by the Egyptians with the heliacal rising of the star Sothis (the Dog Star, Sirius), seen in the constellation of Orion." To summarize, the three wise men serve as pointers for the star in the east, which in turn announces the savior of Egypt.

Neither Allen or Griffiths are associating the rise of Sirius with Horus' birth. Only Acharya herself claims that the rising of Sirius has to do with Horus' birth, and she is not a university-level scholar.

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4. Birth attended by three wise men

"As noted, within the constellation of Orion, “the Hunter,” are three bright stars said to make up his “belt.” Concerning these stars, in The Geography of the Heavens renowned Christian astronomer Elijah Hinsdale Burritt (1794-1838) remarks:

"They are sometimes denominated the Three Kings, because they point out the Hyades and Pleiades on one side, and Sirius, or the Dog-star, on the other. In Job they are called the Bands of Orion...1"

- CIE 204/5

"...Pyramid Text 593:1636b/M 206 states: "Horus the pointed has come forth from thee, in his name of 'Horus who was in Sothis.'" "Horus in Sothis," therefore, refers to when the sun rises with Sirius. Thus, in ancient texts we find the birth of Horus the sun associated with the star in the east.

Egyptologist Dr. J. Gwyn Griffiths concurs that "the inundation of the Nile was often connected by the Egyptians with the heliacal rising of the star Sothis (the Dog Star, Sirius), seen in the constellation of Orion." To summarize, the three wise men serve as pointers for the star in the east, which in turn announces the savior of Egypt."

The Star in the East and Three Kings

Burritt did indeed refer to the stars in Orion's belt as “The Three Kings”. The problem is that he was among the first to do so. There is no evidence that the stars were referred to as the “Three Kings” prior to the 17th century AD, thus the phrase has nothing to do with Horus or anything pre-Christian.

Tat again quotes the Pyramid Text and Dr. Griffiths, but neither refer specifically to the three stars in Orion's belt (Griffiths is talking about the constellation as a whole, which is a lot more than three stars) or make reference to Horus' birth.

Tat responded to my initial dismissal of this one by saying “you can't brush this parallel aside over semantics” and that “The point is that Horus's nativity closely parallels what the gospel writers decided to produce in their works”.

No, the point is that there were no “three kings” or “three wise men” attending Horus' birth, as Acharya claims and as Tat was asked to back up. If the parallels are supposed to be something else, then why was Tat trying to prove this one?

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5. Was a child teacher in the temple at age 12

- "In the Egyptian story of Khamuas/Khamois found on Papyrus DCIV of the British Museum appears an interesting tale about Sa-Asar, Si-Osiris or Senosiris—the “son of Osiris”—who “grew rapidly in wisdom and knowledge of magic.” The tale continues: “When Si-Osiris was twelve years old he was wiser than the wisest of the scribes.”

- Folk-Lore, 498. Folk-Lore: A Quarterly Review of the Myth, Tradition, Institution, & Custom, David Nutt, London, 1901.

- CIE 213

FN. "The earliest date for papyrus DCIV is 46-47 AD/CE, as it is written on the back of official documents created at that time. Since there is absolutely no evidence for the existence at that time of the gospel of Luke, in which this story concerning Christ is contained—in fact there is no real scientific evidence for the existence of Luke’s gospel as we have it until the end of the second century—if the pertinent story regarding Senosiris also dates to that early time, it would serve as clear indication that the gospel story was borrowed from it and not the other way around."

- CIE 213

In The Dawn of Astronomy, [Royal Astronomer Sir Norman] Lockyer describes this process of Horus becoming Re at the hour or ―age‖ of 12:

"We have the form of Harpocrates at its rising, the child sun-god being generally represented by the figure of a hawk. When in human form, we notice the presence of a side lock of hair. The god Ra symbolises, it is said, the sun in his noontide strength; while for the time of sunset we have various names, chiefly Osiris, Tum, or Atmu, the dying sun represented by a mummy and typifying old age. The hours of the day were also personified, the twelve changes during the twelve hours being mythically connected with the sun‘s daily movement across the sky. The various "phases" of the sun‘s journey were given different personalities, while remaining one entity. Hence, Horus the Child wears the side lock until 12 noon when he becomes the adult Re."

The various “phases” of the sun’s journey were given different personalities, while remaining one entity. Hence, Horus the Child wears the side lock until 12 noon when he becomes the adult Re.

- CIE 214

The parallel in question here was whether Horus “taught in the temple at age 12”, and all any of this evidence, valid or not, suggests is that Horus was rather smart at that age. Nothing about him teaching in a temple at all. And Lockyer only talks about Horus becoming Re at 12 noon. Nothing about him being particularly smart, or even being the age of 12, since an hour and a year are not the same thing.

And, for the record, Acharya's claim that there is no evidence for the existence of Luke's Gospel until the end of the second century is laughable.  No serious scholar puts its writing outside of the first century.

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6. Baptized by "Anup the Baptizer."

“For washing is the channel through which [the heathen] are initiated into some sacred rites—of some notorious Isis or Mithras. The gods themselves likewise they honour by washings.

- Tertullian, On Baptism, V (9)

“How natural and expressive the symbolism of exterior washing to indicate interior purification was recognized to be, is plain from the practice also of the heathen systems of religion. The use of lustral water is found among the Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Hindus, and others.”
- Catholic Encyclopedia, “Baptism” (II, 260)

“Baptism is a very ancient rite pertaining to heathen religions, whether of Asia, Africa, Europe or America. It was one of the Egyptian rites in the mysteries."

- James Bonwick, Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought (416)

“The Egyptian baptismal rite has its origins in the Heliopolitan worship of the sun early in the Pyramid Age. The Egyptians believed that each morning the sun passed through the waters of the ocean before being reborn, emerging purified and revitalized. The ritual baptism of the pharaoh each morning symbolized this event and renewed life and vigor of the recipient.”

- Dr. Richard A. Gabriel, Gods of the Fathers (184)

“...all religious ceremonies of Pharaonic times, whether performed on behalf of a deity, a deceased noble, or the living king, were prefaced by some act of ritual cleansing...”

- Sir Dr. Alan H. Gardiner, “The Baptism of Pharaoh,” The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 36 (3)

- CIE 232

Jackal:

"The jackal-headed god Anubis was known well enough to the Greeks by the time of Plato in the fourth century that in his book Gorgias (482b) the philosopher depicts his mentor, Socrates, as swearing “by the dog, the God of the Egyptians.” 2 Plato/Nienkamp, 120; Hornung, SLE, 21.

"The worship of Anubis/Anup/Anpu, also styled Anep, Anepo or Anebo, as well as Anupu and Inpu, among others, may extend back some 6,000 years, making him one of the older gods.1 As noted, Anubis is often portrayed with the head of a jackal, while the jackal constellation is also called the “Jackal of Set,” the latter god at times being identified with Anubis.2 Hence, this god of the underworld is sometimes deemed “Set-Anubis” or “Sut-Anup.” Furthermore, Anubis is at times also depicted as a human being,3 an important fact to know when comparing him to John the Baptist. Sired by either Set or Osiris,4 depending on the myth, Anubis is the son of their sister Nephthys. Thus, like John’s mother, Elizabeth, who was the Virgin Mary’s cousin, Anubis’s mother, Nephthys, was related to Horus’s mother, Isis.5 Hence, as John and Jesus are related to each other..."

- CIE 235/6

John the Baptist and Jesus' Birthdays

"in the Pyramid Texts we find much discussion of the “purifying lake,” which, as at PT 697:2170a/N 564, is that of the jackal: “Thou purifiest thyself in the lake of the jackal; thou cleansest thyself in the lake of the Duat [Netherworld].”1 In addition, at PT 504:1083b/P 458, the Osiris says, “I have cleansed myself in the lakes of the jackal.”2 At CT Sp. 551, we also discover the Osiris bathing in the “Lakes of the Netherworld” and washing in the “Lakes of the Jackals.”3 The “lake of the jackal” or “jackal lake,” in which the deceased or the souls are purified in their progress to immortality, as also at PT 697:2170a/N 564,4 could be understood to be that of Anubis. In CT Sp. 61, the deceased is “cleansed in the Lake of Cold Water,” while Anubis “burns incense for you….”5 The Jackal Lake, in fact, features prominently in the purification of the sun during its nightly journey.6

Anubis as a jackal purifying the dead is undoubtedly based on that scavenger’s role in keeping the land free of putrefaction. This idea is indicated by certain passages in the sacred scriptures, as in CT Sp. 73, discussing the names of Anubis and the “Jackal of Upper Egypt” associated with protection against “rotting” and “putrefaction.”7

Moreover, as embalmer, Anubis’s purifying role in mummification is made clear in the fact that he presides over the “House of Purification”8 and “Tent of Purification,” the latter called tp-jbw in Egyptian.9 In describing the funerary rituals, Dr. Lesko states:

"Pouring of water, for its life-giving as well as purification qualities, was part of every ritual. The corpse, whether first desiccated or not, would have been washed (in the Tent of Purification) and then anointed and wrapped in the embalmer’s shop. Seven sacred oils used for anointing the body are known already in the first dynasty..."10

As we can see, not only was the Osiris baptized but he was also anointed or Christed, as the word would be in Greek. In the “mortuary workshop,” the “rites of embalmming and purification”11 thus go hand in hand. Hence, the deceased—who is at times Osiris and at others Horus—is purified or baptized.

Concerning the cleansing of the deceased in the “Tent of Purification,” in The Apis Embalming Ritual, Dutch Egyptologist Dr. René L. Vos states:

"This washing of the corpse with water is an ancient solar rite, the object being the removal of impurity and the bringing about of resurrection, just as the sun rises from the primeval waters or, which amounts to the same thing, from the horizon.1"

After the corpse is purified, it is moved into the House of Embalming, about which Dr. Vos remarks that it was “above all the house in which the mystery of resurrection was performed, as Osiris had risen from the dead... Purity is a precondition for resurrection... The embalmers enter the House of Embalming after they have met the requirements of purity...”2

Dr. Roth also describes the ritual for the deceased, in which the procession “went aboard a special boat,” which “carried the procession to the sh ntr Jnpw” or the “divine booth of Anubis— probably to be equated with the purification tent…”3

Throughout this complex ritual of purification and resurrection, in which “Osiris is risen from the dead,” as is Horus as the morning sun rising from the “primeval waters,” Anubis is thus the “purifier”4 —or baptist—a role spelled out also in BD 97...."

Footnotes:

1 Vos, R.L., 31.
2 Vos, R.L., 34.
3 Redford, 152.
4 Renouf, EBD, 49; Renouf, PSBA, XIV, 390.

- Christ in Egypt, 250

Footnotes:

1 Mercer; 315; Allen, J., AEPT, 298; Faulkner, AEPT, 304.
2 Mercer, 187; Allen, J., AEPT, 155; Faulkner, AEPT, 180.
3 Faulkner, AECT, II, 163.
4 Faulkner, AEPT, 304; Allen, J., AEPT, 298; Mercer, 315.
5 Faulkner, AECT, I, 56.
6 See, e.g., Willems, 297-298.
7 Faulkner, AECT, I, 68.
8 Hart, 26. See also Vos, R.L., 31-32, 34, 51-52, etc.
9 Redford, 150.
10 Redford, 76.
11 Davis, W.M., 170.

- CIE 249

For this one, Tat bombards me with information, clearly hoping I won't sort through it to see that none of it comes close to meeting the terms of the challenge. He quotes a few people who talk about baptism or purification, then a few people who talk about Anubis purifying the dead, but the only source he gives for Anubis having baptized Horus himself, or who even associates Anubis with John the Baptist, is Acharya herself, who is clearly not a university-level scholar.

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 7. Baptizer was decapitated

"In addition, in the gospel story John the Baptist is decapitated, while, as noted, at different times the constellation of Aquarius also appears to have lost its head. Furthermore, Isis is depicted as decapitated, as the constellation of Virgo at certain times, while Anubis too is associated with headlessness:

"Anubis has a special emblem symbolizing his role as an embalmer. It is a headless animal skin...sometimes dripping blood, tied to a pole. This emblem can also be jackal-headed, as in the Litany of Ra describing the sun-god’s journey through the underworld."

- CIE, 254

Hart, George, The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, Routledge, London/NY, 2005.

"(George Hart was the Curator in the Education Department of the British Museum, he specialised as an Education Officer for Egyptology)"

http://www.amazon.com/Routledge-Diction ... 0415361168

The main problem here is that Tat's source, George Hart, does not say that Anubis was, himself, decapitated. He only says that he used a headless animal for an emblem. Thus this does not back up the claim in question.

Tat responds, “Once again, as per your own requirements, I had to cut an entire chapter on this topic down to a few simple quotes that name a university level scholar. The point is well made in any case. John is associated with Aquarius and his beheading story has only to do with the time of year that Aquarius appears as beheaded, pointing straight back to the older myths.”

First of all, my challenge isn't about simply naming a university-level scholar, but naming one who actually backs up the claim, as Hart clearly does not. And, of course, Tat's only real response is to claim that John's beheading story has only to do with the time of year that Aquarius appears as beheaded, which is typical mythicist astro-theological nonsense (for one thing, the Bible gives no indication of what time of year John was beheaded), and which shows Tat is giving up trying to back up the claim that Horus' baptizer was beheaded.

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Page 2 of the response is here: http://www.kingdavid8.com/_full_article.php?id=f01bd638-ca80-11e1-a119-842b2b162e97 

 

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Taught in temple at age 12?

The evidence your opponent presents here is quite amusing for one reason - it is not about the deity Horus at all! The story actually has some child named Horus - not the deity Horus - who allegedly lived a few centuries BC and supposedly was the spirit of a former great priest who had come back as this child. It has nothing to do with the deity Horus at all. Plus, as you mentioned, it merely states he knew many things by age 12 - not that he taught at temples at age 12. Mozart did amazing things by that age too but it doesn't make him a parallel to Jesus either.Posted by Albert on Oct 26, 2012