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Crucifixion, God's Cruelty and the Holocaust (Page 4)

Myron responded:

A big difference between tools of intelligence and tools of work, though.

Not at all. First intelligence and knowledge of people went up even among Arabs. Secondly they could use axes for a rebellion or acts of subreptitious assassination of their lords. Thirdly, old men, women and children make very poor workers. Most importantly the iron in 1000 BC was an expensive novelty. King Saul had to shine his bronze armor because there was not enough of iron even for the king. Finally, in the early Iron stage the technology was such that only rare and iron arrow tips was possible to make, not massive 18 pound picks necessary in road building or 24 lbs sledgehammers, Get real.

Incidentally, I worked in the Middle East twice, each time for three months a few decades ago, I found them even more stupid and slow-witted than our AfroAms but far more tenacious. Example? Forty years ago free University of Petroleum was built in Daharan Saudi Arabia, with money not to spare for salaries of the western faculty. The aim was to free Arabia of dependence on foreign experts. Today they are as much dependent of the foreign American and British know-how as they were then. For this reason I support Israel which provides brain to peoples who have only muscles. Israel should be a blessing for the Arabs, but they are so primitive that jealousy overrides everything. They can't stand that Jews turned desert into garden in mere 20 years, and they could not do it in 20 centuries. Jews took less then one percent of surface of the desert the Arabs owned. Would you get angry if your neighbor took half an acre of your forest and easily turned in into garden. I would admire and praise him and ask to teach me how to do it. But I am an oddball.

Myron: How can you believe in the Holocaust when 3,000 skeletons of Napoleon's soldiers, along with there pocket change, brass shoe lace eyelets, and belt buckles are found with ease today along with mass graves of Polish officers POW shot by largely Jewish NKVD, but mass graves of 3,000,000 victims of Nazi shootings can not be found in the same area?

David: Because they were cremated. Mounds of ashes 20 feet deep were found inside Poland, and the population statistics suggest that over 3,000,000 (I think about 3,2000,000) Jewish people living inside Poland disappeared during the time that the concentration camps were in effect. What do you think happened to them?

Wrong. According to the Jewish historians and USHMM, the Soviets advanced so fast that the Germans did not have time to cremate them!!! About 3,200,000 Polish Jews, I thought like you do, until 1968 when one third of my class ended up in the USA . While in high school I knew of only two Jews by chance, both whom I befriended. Only because I frequented them at home did I know that their parents were Jewish. All others had Slavic names and surnames apparently Slavicized en mass in l945-48. Countless died due to "the tyranny of war" to use the WW I description of the little "h" along with other peoples. I estimate that from the remainder, one third emigrated to Israel, one third to the West and one third remained in Poland. Post war emigration to the West, England, Germany and USA shows how little patriotism/nationalism there was among the Jews even after 1945.

No, the evidence for the holocaust is much stronger than mere eyewitness testimony (are we counting the testimony of the Nazis themselves in this? They'd have no reason to exaggerate their own figures)

David8, you are dragging me into holocaust discussion which I am too busy for at present. Did you forgot Abu Gharib??? Commandant of Auschwitz R. Hoess was tortured so much that he admitted to gassing 3,500,000 Jews. SS Doctor w. Schuebe was beaten so much that he concocted a Science Fiction story of killing 120,000 Jews with morphine at his Annihilation Institute in Kiev (now spelled Kyiv) because his interrogators, Jewish of course because Americans did not speak German, did not get the mass shooting or exploding mines as yet. For this reason the story of Annihilation Institute published in the NYTimes on May 5, 1945 is intensely suppressed until present. SS man Kurt Gerstein confessed that 44,000,000 of mostly Jews were gassed at Belzec camp alone!

We also have huge piles of human ash, piles of eyeglasses, gold teeth, corpses, artificial limbs, lampshades made of human skin, population statistics, gassing records, train records, plus the camps and crematoria, etc. The physical evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the Holocaust having happened.

The only correct is the fact that a few tonnes of mostly Jewish hair are extant at the Auschwitz museum and similar quantity of shoes at majdanek camp. When I grew up in [non-U.S. location withheld per Myron's request] in 1940s and 1950s my barber carefully swiped his floor and put my hair in a big bag which then was sent to recycling center. Ceratine form human hair and horses hoofs was used as plastic because it is thermoplastic. Nazis were maniacal recyclers, even before the war. Your mother was also. She was collecting drippings from her frying pen because fat was used for making nitroglycerine. Wartime NYTimes ran an add about patriotic saving of fat dripping almost every day! Orthodox historians of the big H now agree that crematoria were so poorly made that the majority of corpses were burned in open pits and the ashes were dumped in the rivers. You are repeating the line of irresponsible journalists. The largest magazine in the world, Parade, with editorial offices in NYC, three years ago cited a big H historian as claiming that 12,000,000 Jews lost their live in the big H. Parade is a weekly insert to about 34,000,000 copies of daily newspapers throught the USA. Not a single reader or big H scholar objected to this number when I checked with them three months and six months later. No errata was printed either.

[Portion edited out per Myron's request]

There's no reason I can see that God couldn't have personally caused the recent tsunamis, hurricanes, and earthquakes, but I don't believe He did because I can't think of a reason that He would have.

PAT ROBERTSON DOES!, Pat Robertson does! Pat Robertson does!!! David8, you are a Protestant megalomaniac. You belittle God and you think that you are smarter than Pat Robertson. You are as heretical as me who thinks that the last Pope and many before him and the present one were homosexuals. Did you see how beautiful the secretary of the Benny the XVIth (or whatever is His number) is? His secretary is a true handsome and young Toy Boy. All young Catholic women love him! He is like mirror image of Dr. Kildare [aka Chamberlain} who got out of the closet about two years ago.

It's love because God gave all people life in the first place, and is willing to forgive any and all sins, no matter what a person has done,so that they can join Him in Heaven for eternity. No tsunami can take that away.

I can see you falling on your knees on the sand of Phuket Beach and raising your hands and screaming "Gentle Jesus, come and take me to your kingdom!" instead running away as Missy Tilly Smith have done. She must be an atheist, but I think she had Cross hung from her neck in NYC? On serious note I think your response is rushed. "forgive any and all sins" you wrote today out of convenience but two days ago you wrote about that blasphemy against Holy Ghost is unforgivable.

Providing salvation to people who haven't earned it IS love. If God put up a "sin quota" where once you've done a certain amount of sins, forgiveness can never be within your reach, that wouldn't be loving.

Concept of Purgatory takes care of the above irrational sophistry.

I believe that suffering, as horrible as it is, increases empathy and love between people. No, I don't see how it all works out, but I don't see suffering as evidence that God is unloving or non-existent when the evidence that He is loving and existent is so overwhelming.  The fact of suffering certainly gives us something to think about and question, which we do. Nothing wrong with that.

Same kind of logic when looking at four tones of human hair destined for recycling in pre-plastic era is a proof of industrial homicidal gassings. It's a similar type of disagreement as when three individuals look at an ink blot and one says it depicts the Devil, the other an Angel and the third claims it is an randomly shaped ink blot.

On the contrary, the universe as a whole is moving towards disorder.  On this planet, things are becoming more organized and complex, but, compared to the universe, this planet is the small scale. The only reason things are becoming more complex is that energy from our sun powers processes that keep the world moving - and in the process the sun itself moves closer and closer to burning out. If we didn't have the sun shining down on us, things would move towards disorder VERY quickly.

I am not that good at astronomy but if the Black Hole theory is correct, and I think it is, the stars collapse just to emerge on the other side of the space "warp" to be "Born Again" as a new star. Incidentally I believe the Einstein theory of Relativity to be one of passing scientific/political fads, as most of scientific theories are [e.g. Lysenkoism in USSR] unlike that of Copernicus and Darwin. Darwin's and Copernicus' are supported by observations of everyday life (so many subspecies of dog, tides and webs correlate with the distance of the Moon etc). Sure, mass of stars deflects light but this does not mean that not explain the twin paradox as PolCorect scientists claim.

On the other hand I firmly believe that in the future, theoretically we will be able to see the past provided that future generations will develop supersensitive EMag or TV receptors. Imagine a dinosaur in a desert. His image is beamed into space. Its picture hits some cold planet of star 30,000.000 light years away.  The picture gets reflected and dispersed from it. 30 million light years later, it arrives on Earth and is detected with super sensitive TV receiver.  At that moment Clio the Muse of History, the most prejudicial of all Muses, dies in shame.

And to call a group "genocidal" implies that they were out to destroy a race of people because of their race. In the case of the Israelites, they only tried to wipe out people who were out to destroy them. It was clearly self-defense, not genocidal intent.

You are wrong my friend, Albanians took over Serbian (Slavic) land of  Kosovo but Albright (I forgot her Polish-Jewish maiden name) decide that Serbians committed genocide. In March 1933 English newspaper in front page page-width headlines scram "JUEDA DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY'.   Every 5&10 store in US and especially NYC was boycotted for months for selling German goods. A quarter million well-dressed in straw hats "New Yorkers" walked every three weeks from March until summer from Madison Square Garden until the NYC town hall in Wall street area every Thursday in 1933 at the height of unemployment to protest Hitler.

Then everything stopped in the summer when Untermayer returned from London. Read and see the crowds in the photos on the microfilms of the NY Times at your local library. The only document which can not be forged (because microfilms of it are all over) is the newspaper the only document which rarely prints the truth because it prints what the owner pays them to do. Hence Serbians and Nazis were reciprocating in self defense. You are duplicitous David 8.

In regard to Noah’s Flood, I agree with you and think you should read so titled book by Columbia University marine geologists W Ryan and W. Pitmann. I think they are correct.

If the Flood story is a myth why the Resurrection story is not a Myth??? Especially that many early Christians, the most pious, did not believe in it and formed on this basis heresies. Why for centuries was the symbol of Christianity the fish but not the Cross??? Do not give me the line about secrecy. Personal devotional articles did not have to be secret.   We are told that martyrs were dying for Christ and would not disown or refute Him, but were afraid to carry a cross under their cloth? I think the story of Resurrection was for many centuries considered as an inspirational story and not as reality. Same way as the story of St George, now demoted and about to lose his status as the saint of England,

Why then did the Israeli Haaretz agree that the King David and Solomon stories are inspirational myths? Are the the new generation of Israeli archeologists self-hating Jews? I doubt it. I think they are enlightened and courageous individuals. We European Christians should start to emulate them.

[portion edited per Myron's request]

I Responded:

Secondly they could use axes for a rebellion or acts of subreptitious assassination of their lords.

Throughout history, people have always put prisoners to work using tools. As long as they are properly guarded and supervised while doing the work, risk of using them for rebellion or assassination is small.

Thirdly, old men, women and children make very poor workers.

I'm still not seeing any specific reference in any of the translations making reference to old men, women and children.

Most importantly the iron in 1000 BC was an expensive novelty.

Right, but assuming the tools existed (which the text doesn't leave in doubt) it's no more expensive to have POW's using them than it is to have the Israelites themselves using them.

Finally, in the early Iron stage the technology was such that only rare and iron arrow tips was possible to make, not massive 18 pound picks necessary in road building or 24 lbs sledgehammers, Get real.

Again, the text doesn't leave any doubt that the tools existed. Since the texts appear to have been written roughly the same time as the events (there's no strong evidence of interpolations) is stands to reason that the tools being described really existed.

According to the Jewish historians and USHMM, the Soviets advanced so fast that the Germans did not have time to cremate them!!!

What on Earth are you talking about? Those camps were open for years. Auschwitz was open from 1940 to 1945, IIRC. That's plenty of time to cremate people when it only took about a half hour or so.

I estimate that from the remainder, one third emigrated to Israel, one third to the West and one third remained in Poland. Post war emigration to the West, England, Germany and USA shows how little patriotism/nationalism there was among the Jews even after 1945.

Yet there are still around six million who disappeared altogether.

David8, you are dragging me into holocaust discussion which I am too busy for at present.

Yeah, same here. I really didn't want to get into one at all. Let's call it off here. If you're interested at some point later on, there is a site responding to the IHR's charges at http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html

PAT ROBERTSON DOES!, Pat Robertson does! Pat Robertson does!!!

Who cares what Pat Robertson does?

David8, you are a Protestant megalomaniac. You belittle God and you think that you are smarter than Pat Robertson.

I don't belittle God, I just refuse to blame Him for things that I don't believe He is responsible for.

But I do think that I am smarter than Pat Robertson, yes. I think my cats are probably smarter than Pat Robertson, for that matter.

You are as heretical as me who thinks that the last Pope and many before him and the present one were homosexuals.

I have no idea, and no interest in knowing, which popes are/were homosexuals. I don't even care if Priests (Catholic or Protestant) are homosexuals, as long as they don't actually molest kids. Those who do molest kids need to be kicked out of their positions and thrown in prison and I'm disappointed that the church has been hesitant to do so.

I can see you falling on your knees on the sand of Phuket Beach and raising your hands and screaming "Gentle Jesus, come and take me to your kingdom!"

Actually, I'm just sitting at my computer, typing.

I think your response is rushed. "forgive any and all sins" you wrote today out of convenience but two days ago you wrote about that blasphemy against Holy Ghost is unforgivable.

Because blasphemy against the Holy Ghost means refusing to accept forgiveness.

Concept of Purgatory takes care of the above irrational sophistry.

I don't believe in Purgatory.

Incidentally I believe the Einstein theory of Relativity to be one of passing scientific/political fads,

I definitely think he was on to something. Whether he was truly "correct", I don't know, but he was at least pointing in the right direction.

On the other hand I firmly believe that in the future, theoretically we will be able to see the past provided that future generations will develop supersensitive EMag or TV receptors. Imagine a dinosaur in a desert. His image is beamed into space. Its picture hits some cold planet of star 30,000.000 light years away.  The picture gets reflected and dispersed from it. 30 million light years later, it arrives on Earth and is detected with super sensitive TV receiver.

I agree. Technically, every single moment, we are seeing into the past. Even if you look at someone who is standing a foot away from you, you are seeing them as they were one-billionth of a second ago (or something like that). I think we're seeing a sun as it was fourteen minutes ago, not as it is right now. So if we could find some way to look at our own planet from a great distance, we'd be seeing into its distant past. Wouldn't it be cool to focus on the Middle East around 32 A.D. and determine once and for all whether Jesus was resurrected?

If the Flood story is a myth why the Resurrection story is not a Myth???

Because it's unlikely that the earliest Christians, the ones who would have known whether it was a myth or not, would have suffered the persecution under Nero had they been able to get out of it by saying "oh, that Jesus thing? Yeah, that's just a myth!" Christianity wouldn't have survived the 1st century had there not been truth to it. Also, treating the Gospel accounts the same way we would treat other writings that we would suspect of being either history or myth, they stand up much better as history. We are seeing what we would expect to see if the authors were writing true accounts, not what we would expect to see if they were writing a made-up story.

Especially that many early Christians, the most pious, did not believe in it and formed on this basis heresies.

The ones who didn't believe in it were ones who weren't there to know whether it happened. Those who'd been closest to Jesus in those days, even those who were skeptical, like Thomas and James, ended up believing.

Why for centuries was the symbol of Christianity the fish but not the Cross???

Both were.

We are told that martyrs were dying for Christ and would not disown or refute Him, but were afraid to carry a cross under their cloth?

I think it took a while for the cross to catch on since, prior to the resurrection, crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die.

I think the story of Resurrection was for many centuries considered as an inspirational story and not as reality.

The evidence says otherwise. Paul wrote that if the resurrection didn't happen, if it was just a myth, then their faith was in vain. That's not what one would write if they considered it merely an inspirational story.

Why then did the Israeli Haaretz agree that the King David and Solomon stories are inspirational myths?

Some believe that, most don't.

David

Myron responded:

David,

1) An average British Bobby beats Christ as a Prince of Peace! We should replace duplicitous Christianity with Holocaustianity and Bobbyism which would nicely replaced it with a true 'martyrologism' [veneration of suffering] and pacifism. British policemen for decades did not carry guns. Bobbies prevent (even today most are unarmed) "violence" against others and themselves without resorting to arms. Daily, on their beat they 'beat' JC's and D8's concepts of peace flat.

You correctly noticed that I overlooked the 'fact' that JC restored the cut off ear, hence the turn the other cheek dictum was preserved in this case but not in the case of the massacre of the 6,000 (?) innocent swine driven off the cliff (if the cliff was there, which Humphreys doubts). However, no forgiveness for the blasphemers of the Holy Ghost still stands.

2) You are dead wrong that Bible is uncontroversial on major points. Most Ch. denominations disagree about the major points such as Trinity because Bible is a compendium of chauvinistic Jewish legends.

3) You agreed that it contains myths or improbable parables, hence it is not the "Holy" Bible or even truthful Bible, while 66,6% of Protestants disagree with you. If the Holy Bible is not holy on some points we have to establish existence of Christ on something more than the preponderance of oral evidence of alleged eyewitnesses or their writing about 100 years later or as it is said in regard to the Big H "convergence of evidence".

One fingerprint left at the crime of scene collapses elaborate house of cards of "preponderance of oral testimony" or "convergence of evidence." One wartime air-photo of the Nazi concentration camp showing puny mass grave or one forensic exploration of a mine shaft in Kosovo showing absence of 6,000 men women and children collapses the entire martyrological group fantasy. One word with which Christ anachronistically tells the crowd that He is bringing them "cross" instead suffering or misexpresses Himself r-e-p-e-a-t-e-d-l-y that He brings them a sword instead martyrdom proves that He lost, at least temporarily, the control of His Aramaic tongue and/or the Holy Ghost lost the control over the Evangelists hand.

Once the Holy Bible or even parts of it are considered suspect the main points are for revisionist discussion, what Humphrey is doing for better or worse, and you dabble in it afraid to deny it until the historicity of Jesus is proven. Conversely, if you can not come to the grips with it, like I could not for decades, you will go one with inventing little sophistries on behalf of the Jesus Christ. I think that if one is so insecure that can not live without Religion he/she should reverse to the Religion of our Ancestors which is much older than Big Ch.

We live in the year 7,514 of Ridna Vira (Ukrainian Native Faith) which nearly arithmetically coincides with the combined C-14 and mass spectrometry dating of the break through of Bosphorous and inundation of the Black freshwater Lake or Southern Ukraine with Mediterranean waters about 7.550 +/- 20 years ago. Read the book "Noah’s Flood" by Columbia Univ marine geologists W Ryan and W Pittman, published 2001, the cause of the dispersal of Proto-ukrainians ('Indo-Europeans") and perhaps the Noah’s Flood myths. Or his Black Sea, flood on Google.

Today, I am going to work around my house and wish you good Sunday. Think our ancestors called it Sunday and not like half dumb Latins Domenica. Even Constantine called it day of the invincible Sun !!! This tells you about the sincerity of his Conversion. And I got it not from Humphreys who refuses to see any of the great redeeming values of the Big Ch today.

Myron

I Responded:

1) An average British Bobby beats Christ as a Prince of Peace! We should replace duplicitous Christianity with Holocaustianity and Bobbyism which would nicely replaced it with a true 'martyrologism' [veneration of suffering] and pacifism. British policemen for decades did not carry guns. Bobbies prevent (even today most are unarmed) "violence" against others and themselves without resorting to arms. Daily, on their beat they 'beat' JC's and D8's concepts of peace flat.

They also live in a much more peaceful society than Jesus lived in. Would you recommend that policemen in high crime areas like New York City, Detroit, Los Angeles and Chicago go around unarmed?

2) You are dead wrong that Bible is uncontroversial on major points. Most Ch. denominations disagree about the major points such as Trinity because Bible is a compendium of chauvinistic Jewish legends.

No, most Christian denominations agree that there is a trinity. Only a few don't.

3) You agreed that it contains myths or improbable parables, hence it is not the "Holy" Bible or even truthful Bible

A parable isn't an untruth or unholy. When Jesus spoke of the prodigal son and the sower of seeds, He was speaking in parables. When David spoke of "walking through the valley of the shadow of death", he wasn't speaking of a literal valley. That doesn't mean it's a lie and should be discounted.

while 66,6% of Protestants disagree with you.

And all of them agree that there are parables in the Bible. They only disagree on which stories are parables and which ones are not. But getting meaning from a story is more important than whether you take it literally.

If the Holy Bible is not holy on some points

I never said it's unholy on points.

One word with which Christ anachronistically tells the crowd that He is bringing them "cross" instead suffering

Since Jesus knew what was coming, and He's the one speaking, there's no reason to suppose it's an anachronism.

or misexpresses Himself r-e-p-e-a-t-e-d-l-y

When did He ever misexpress Himself?

He lost, at least temporarily, the control of His Aramaic tongue

Not sure I'm getting your point here. He warned them that many of them would suffer, and they did.

and/or the Holy Ghost lost the control over the Evangelists hand.

The Holy Ghost gives guidance, but doesn't exert control over what people do. If someone decides to do something God doesn't like, God won't force them to stay in line. If He did, then there would be no point in free will.

Once the Holy Bible or even parts of it are considered suspect

I don't find it suspicious that Jesus, or the Biblical authors, used fictional stories to make points. It was quite common in those days, and it still is today.

you dabble in it afraid to deny it until the historicity of Jesus is proven.

The historicity of Jesus (the idea that He really existed) has overwhelming evidence to support it. Even among non-Christians, most believe He at least existed.

I think that if one is so insecure that can not live without Religion he/she should reverse to the Religion of our Ancestors which is much older than Big Ch.

I lived just fine without religion until I was 27, at which point I became logically convinced that the resurrection of Jesus is historical fact. If someone could give me any kind of evidence that it isn't, I'll weigh it against the positive evidence, and if I become logically convinced that Jesus wasn't resurrected, I'll do just fine living without it once again.

David

Myron Responded:

Throughout history, people have always put prisoners to work using tools.

But not high technology items. Plows, yokes, harrows but not stealth technology or supercomputers. Germans had to deploy prisoners with terrible security risk realized in menial jobs at V-2 factories and U-boats shipyards. in semi-underground bunkers. Thus Polish Underground reported to England thickness of their concrete cover, which Allies (knowing which bombs to use) used to bomb them. 1000-900 BC was the beginning of the Iron age and there was not enough of it for mail and armor, forget about 20 lb sledge hammers for an army of old men women and children

I'm still not seeing any specific reference in any of the translations making reference to old men, women and children.

I am astonished at your blindness!!! Get old unadulterated edition of KJB. It says 'he brought forth the people that were therein" After the customary "putting to the sword" of all arm-bearing men, who was left in Rabath? Old men, women and children. Were there any exceptions mentioned? - NO. This means that David did not do anything merciful or exceptional like saving the lives of six or 60 or 600 or 6,000 defenders. As usual, all arms-bearing men were slaughtered.

Moreover "and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon". Now STOP here and think. Massacring defenders of Rabath (the arms-bearing men) was expected, normal and not criminal, actually in the long term preserving thousands of lives of future attackers who died as flies during sieges. HOWEVER killing inhabitants of "all the cites of the children of Ammon" was racially motivated. 'Extermination' on an industrial and sadistic scale. Hitler protected selected Jews in Theresienstadt! 11% of barracks in Birkenau were used as Lazarets-infirmaries. In 1964 I was still using the same Xray machines which were used in Birkenau (see photos of them from the Nuremberg exhibits) My Jewish friend Treblinka escapee and Bireknau survivor was treated with sulfonamides which were more expensive than gold shortly AFTER the WW II in Poland. Hitler never exterminated "all cities" of his enemies.

Right, but assuming the tools existed (which the text doesn't leave in doubt) it's no more expensive to have POW's using them than it is to have the Israelites themselves using them.

You are childish, believing the Bible. How come that there is no archeological evidence of David's empire and only flimsy iron arrowheads survive from that era?? Thin arrowheads were the first to corrode into nothing. There are not even iron knives discovered in Israel from that era.

Again, the text doesn't leave any doubt that the tools existed. Since the texts appear to have been written roughly the same time as the events (there's no strong evidence of interpolations) is stands to reason that the tools being described really existed.

You are a biblical cherry picker who disbelieves in the Flood but believes in iron harrows which were not much better that wood/flint or wood-only harrows. In 1940s with my grandpa, we were still manufacturing harrows totally from wood!!! Ironwod at that also called hornbeam because of their resistance to breaking and abrading.

What on Earth are you talking about? Those camps were open for years. Auschwitz was open from 1940 to 1945, IIRC. That's plenty of time to cremate people when it only took about a half hour or so.

You are dead wrong again, and ignorant of the Hx of the big H. I am going to report you to Abe Foxman!!!!! Of course I am writing about the victims of the Einsatzgruppen, shot and buried behind the Eastern Front not in Poland!!! Moreover in order to cremate USHMM and Panstwowe Muzeum w Oswiecimiu state that the speed of cremation had to be ten minutes in order to meet the six figure quota of the total count. However an Israeli who cremated Eichmann stupidly and truthful confessed that it took him 90 minutes to do the job. American cremationists do not do better time despite using natural high temp burning gas and computerized retors, Vide History Channel, Modern Marvels about the funerary industry in these USA.

Yet there are still around six million who disappeared altogether.

Prove it instead of believing

Yeah, same here. I really didn't want to get into one at all. Let's call it off here. If you're interested at some point later on, there is a site responding to the IHR's charges at http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html

Nizkor should be congratulated at picking up stupidities and zeal of about 50% of Holocaust revisionist who are ardent anti-Semites.   However, elsewhere they use similar reasoning like you about the Bible cherry-picking method and omitting or dismissing inconvenient statements

[Portion edited out per Myron's request]

I don't belittle God, I just refuse to blame Him for things that I don't believe He is responsible for.

But I do think that I am smarter than Pat Robertson, yes.

I AGREE ABOUT THAT. Some atheists and H revisionist are equally stupid like the old Pat.

I don't believe in Purgatory.

Shame on You, biblical cherry picker (smile please, sarcasm)

I definitely think he (Einstein) was on to something. Whether he was truly "correct", I don't know, but he was at least pointing in the right direction.

No doubt about that.

Technically, every single moment, we are seeing into the past. Even if you look at someone who is standing a foot away from you, you are seeing them as they were one-billionth of a second ago (or something like that).

THIS IS BRILIANT AND SO SIMPLE!  I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT. Hats off to you David!!!

I think we're seeing a sun as it was fourteen minutes ago, not as it is right now. So if we could find some way to look at our own planet from a great distance, we'd be seeing into its distant past. Wouldn't it be cool to focus on the Middle East around 32 A.D. and determine once and for all whether Jesus was resurrected?

This would collapse the entire matter of Faith and Religion, I think.  Then Bible study would become true science!

Because it's unlikely that the earliest Christians, the ones who would have known whether it was a myth or not, would have suffered the persecution under Nero had they been able to get out of it by saying "oh, that Jesus thing? Yeah, that's just a myth!" Christianity wouldn't have survived the 1st century had there not been truth to it.

You are dead wrong!! One thousand of Jones' faithful in Guiana selected suicide. A group of 29 computer geeks in California committed ritualistic suicide about 7 years ago. Human stupidity is boundless.

I think it took a while for the cross to catch on since, prior to the resurrection, crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die.

You got it! Christ would not ask the crowds to pick up the cross (crucifixion)!

My Response:

But not high technology items. Plows, yokes, harrows but not stealth technology or supercomputers.

Right. Saws and stuff like that weren't high technology.

1000-900 BC was the beginning of the Iron age and there was not enough of it for mail and armor, forget about 20 lb sledge hammers for an army of old men women and children.

I don't see any reason to suppose that the tools described didn't exist at the time, since they described the tools. They weren't writing science fiction here.

After the customary "putting to the sword" of all arm-bearing men, who was left in Rabath? Old men, women and children. Were there any exceptions mentioned? - NO. This means that David did not do anything merciful or exceptional like saving the lives of six or 60 or 600 or 6,000 defenders. As usual, all arms-bearing men were slaughtered.

We have two possibilities here.

If the passage is describing the people being put to death, then this is likely describing what happened to the arm-bearing men.

If the passage is describing people being put to work, then there is nothing in here saying that the arm-bearing men were put to death first. Not everyone followed every military tradition, especially if they had a good reason not to. If the Israelites were planning on putting their POW's to work, it makes sense that they would spare those best suited for work, as opposed to killing them and putting those least well-suited, the elderly and kids, to work instead. That wouldn't make any sense for them to do it that way.

How come that there is no archeological evidence of David's empire and only flimsy iron arrowheads survive from that era??

First of all, the historical evidence for David is quite strong. Strong enough that if we're going to doubt that David existed, then we're going to have to be consistent and doubt the existence of many other historical figures that no one doubts existed. When we're talking about archeological evidence from 3000 years ago for a specific individual, the fact that we're not finding much wouldn't be surprising.

But second of all, there is indeed archeological evidence for the existence of David. Avraham Biran, an archeologist at Hebrew Union College, found (in 1993) a 9th century B.C. inscription in Northern Israel that refers to the "Beit David", the House or Dynasty of David. It was found in the Biblical city of Dan.

You are dead wrong again, and ignorant of the Hx of the big H. I am going to report you to Abe Foxman!!!!! Of course I am writing about the victims of the Einsatzgruppen, shot and buried behind the Eastern Front not in Poland!!!

For the record, I am done talking about the Holocaust. Go to that website I gave you earlier if you want answers to your objections.

One thousand of Jones' faithful in Guiana selected suicide. A group of 29 computer geeks in California omitted ritualistic suicide about 7 years ago. Human stupidity is boundless.

Yep, and those faiths died, which is what Christianity would have done if, like with their faiths, there had been nothing to it.

Christ would not ask the crowds to pick up the cross (crucifixion)!

Not unless He knew what was coming next. I don't doubt that when He said it, the crowds had little if any idea what He meant. I think He meant for them to figure it out after He was crucified.

David

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