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On Horus (Page 1)

John Wrote:

Dear Sir,

I happened unto your website from a search query for Horus v. Jesus. I would love to enter the debate and enlighten you and your readers as to the well established facts concerning the parallels of these two solar Gods.

The apologist's incessant drivel makes our job dificult, but not impossible. Tell me what it is that you require to help you to see the light, and I will do what I can to arrest and slaughter this dispicable insufferable disease that has laid waste to millions upon millions of innocent men, women, and children.

John

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I responded:

John,

Thanks for writing. All I'm asking is for anyone to back up at least half of the claims for any of the major deities that mythicists claim influenced Jesus (Horus, Krishna, Buddha, Mithra, Dionysus, Zoroaster, and Attis) with some kind of hard evidence, such as the stories where those things happen. Just see my Christ-myther challenge - http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Challenge.html

I've been offering up to $1000 for this evidence for over two years now, and, so far, no one's even made an attempt to provide the evidence. Can you?

Peace,

David

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John responded:

Yes, I'll be more than happy to submit some evidence for your consideration. Let me put some links together for you.

John

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I responded:

John,

I look forward to it, but I don't just want links. I want the evidence itself. You can certainly provide links to where you got it from, but please cut-and-paste the relevant evidence. Unless it's pictures of hieroglyphs or other images, in which case links will do just fine.

David

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John responded:

I seen that coming a mile away. First of all you have to realize Christianity is a multi-billion dollar business. The Vatican kept us in the dark for over 1500 years. Ironically it was the muslims who set us free, and restored the ancient Greek writngs. Even today archeologists die suddenly of mysterious causes when a find appears that disproves the Bible. I've argued with Wiki on the Egyptian God: Amen, and supplied a credible source which at first they accepted only to trash at a later time. So you see why I don't care to waste my time providing material to someone who is most likely to discount it. If you're truly interested in an accurate rendering of Judaism, Christianity and Islam read: "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright. The simple truth is that the Horus/Christ paradigm is a minor detail when you study the evidence against the bible. Here's some links to consider:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/yah.htm 
http://treeoflifeassembly.com/favoritesermonsvol2/originoftermsjsusgd.html

As for the Horus/Jesus connection look this up : G. Daressy, (1905) pl. LXI (CGC 39291).

I'll put some more links together just to disprove your theory as to why I had decided against it, and we'll see where you go with it.

John

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I responded:

John,

Again, I don't want links, I want the actual evidence. If you don't want to debate it with me because you think I'm unreasonable, that's fine. Just send me the quotes from the stories where these things happen, or whatever evidence you have besides someone just repeating the claims, and I'll put it up on my website, unedited, for all to see. If you don't want me to debate the evidence with you, then I won't. I'll just post it. What have you got to lose?

I really don't understand why it is so hard for people to provide the evidence, and how on Earth mythicists expect people to believe this stuff when they refuse to provide evidence. If you don't have the evidence, and have never seen it, then why do you believe it's true? Why do you believe these stories exist, when you've never read them?

Either provide the evidence, or stop telling people that these claims are true. Because without the evidence, no rational person will ever believe you.

David

4/2/11

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John responded:

David, I find it very interesting that you question why I believe these claims about Horus and Jesus, when, assuming that you are a theist, you would believe in a ridiculous amount of far-fetched myths. There's absolutely nothing remotely spectacular about believing in the simularities between Horus and Jesus, whereas, believing that Jesus could walk on water, raise the dead, cure the blind, and so on, takes a huge leap of pure faith. Most theists believe these things, even though there's not a single stitch of evidence that Jesus "the Christ" ever existed. I don't have any issues with a good-hearted debate on any topic of religion. I take my studies of religion very seriously. I get most of my research material from the local libraries. When I do use the internet, I generally stick to university websites. I purposely avoid the so-called conspiracy websites. If you're demanding the original scrolls or wall carvings that describe these simularities, I doubt they will do you any good, unless, of course, you can translate hieroglyphic or hieratic and demotic scripts. If so, then I would simply tell you to buy a plane ticket to Egypt. Once there you'll find a nativity story is related and recorded on the walls at the Temple of Amon at Luxor, built by Amenhotep III (1411-1375BCD):

http://www.examiner.com/women-s-goddess-spirituality-in-los-angeles/the-origins-of-christmas-four-parts-egypt-s-nativity-story-and-holy-family-part-1

Are you aware of the fact that the "nativity scene" also originated in Egypt?

On the temple walls, you will also find most of the connections between Horus and Jesus. In the story, Thoth was the Egyptian equivalent of the Hebrew Gabriel. He hails the Virgin Queen, Isis, and informs her that she is to bear a son. Next she is visited by Kneph (spirit) and becomes mysteriously impregnated when the Ankh is held to her mouth. Later the child is born. The god is given gifts and adored by Gods and men. The wall painting shows three human figures, kneeling and offering gifts. Other ancient Egyptian stories complete the nativity story: Horus (Jesus) and his virginal mother, Mari (Mary or Isis) accompanied by Seb (Joseph) his foster father and protector are forced to flee to the marshes of Egypt to escape from the evil serpent Herrut (Herod).

Look me up when you get back and we can have that debate. Until that time, I would ask that you stop trying to twist the truth to conform it to your silly fairytales. There are many people who have devoted their entire lifetime to bring us this information.

John

4/12/11

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I responded:

"David, I find it very interesting that you question why I believe these claims about Horus and Jesus, when, assuming that you are a theist, you would believe in a ridiculous amount of far-fetched myths. There's absolutely nothing remotely spectacular about believing in the simularities between Horus and Jesus, whereas, believing that Jesus could walk on water, raise the dead, cure the blind, and so on, takes a huge leap of pure faith"

With Jesus, we at least have the stories where these things happen. I find these stories convincing, you obviously do not. That's fine. But for the claims about Horus, we don't even have the stories where those things happen. Therefore, belief in Jesus, valid or not, is automatically more rational than belief in the Horus/Jesus claims. I may have faith, but you have blind faith. You've never even read the stories backing up the Horus claims, yet believe that these stories exist. If they exist, why can no one find them?

"If you're demanding the original scrolls or wall carvings that describe these simularities, I doubt they will do you any good"

I'm not. Modern English translations of the pre-Christian stories will do just fine. We have pre-Christian texts and images about Horus such as the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Pyramid Texts, the Coffin Texts, the Luxor carvings, and the writings of Diodorus Siculus, but they don't back up the mythicist claims.

"unless, of course, you can translate hieroglyphic or hieratic and demotic scripts."

An already-translated version of the story will be fine.

"If so, then I would simply tell you to buy a plane ticket to Egypt. Once there you'll find a nativity story is related and recorded on the walls at the Temple of Amon at Luxor, built by Amenhotep III"

Atheist scholar Richard Carrier debunks the Luxor claims in an article here: http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/Luxor_Inscription.html . He shows that the Luxor carvings show a sexual conception, with Amun climbing into the Queen's bed, disguised as her husband, and having his way with her. Until Thoth appears to her, she assumes she's been impregnated by her husband. The annunciation is for the upcoming birth, not the upcoming conception. In fact, she's clearly pregnant in panel 8 if you look closely. Mythicists mostly get this story from Acharya's writings, but she gets a lot wrong, falsely assuming the mother is the Goddess Isis (it's actually a human queen in this version, not Isis), that Kneph is the father (it's Amun), and that the annunciation is for the upcoming conception (it's for the birth).

Peace,

David

4/2/11

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John responded:

David, aside from the fact that your "expert" admits: " I skimmed the relevant sections, since I did not have time to make a translation (that's always tricky, and very time consuming), ", and that his commentary is loaded with pure conjecture, his argument is fatally flawed. Rather or not the so-called virgins were impregnated by the actual act of coitus or not, is irrelevant. The parallels are perfectly clear where it matters. The women were impregnated by Gods, and not their husbands. The bible does not tell us how Yahweh accomplished this feat, and the Luxor inscription is vague, but it does not matter. What's important is not in the how, but in the "who". Afterall it is the divinity of the conception that is the essense of the story, not the mechanics.

David, the major denominations of Christianity disagree on three significant doctrines:

1. The Trinity.
2. Transubstantiation.
3. The immaculate conception of Mary.

The atheist does not need to even enter the debate. Rather Mary or Isis were products of immaculate conceptions or not is irrelevant, since the Christian jury is still hung on that one.

Of course I believe your expert already conceded the nativity scene, so we're batting 1000 thus far.

1. God impregnates a virgin.
2. Annunciation and conception.
3. Nativity scene.
4. Adoration, and confirmation.

Now that we've settled this little distraction, let's move on to some other significant parallels. In the future, David, please stay on topic and present the same level of evidence that you demand. Next we'll discuss these:

1. Winter solstice/December 25th
2. The Egyptian Ankh
3. Baptism
4. The missing years of Horus/Jesus' life
5. The twelve disciples

So as to save time, please tell me which of these you consider in dispute.

"With Jesus, we at least have the stories where these things happen. I find these stories convincing, you obviously do not. That's fine. But for the claims about Horus, we don't even have the stories where those things happen. Therefore, believe in Jesus, valid or not, is automatically more rational than belief in the Horus/Jesus claims. I may have faith, but you have blind faith. You've never even read the stories backing up the Horus claims, yet believe that these stories exist. If they exist, why can no one find them?"

I just mentioned the temple in Luxor. Perhaps you do not find it convincing, but you can not say we do not have the stories. I've read many of the stories in the wisdom literature of ancient Egypt. Are you even aware of the fact that the book of Proverbs has been proven to be Egyptian? The same has been said for Psalms. The last I read there are over 14000 Egyptian scrolls yet to be translated.

Here's a sampling of some of this:

" 1. I came ! I gave thee might to fell the princes of Taha. † [Page 201] I cast them beneath thy feet, marching across their territories. I made them to behold thy Majesty as a Lord of Light, shining in their faces, even in my own likeness!

" 2. I came! I gave thee might to fell the nations of Asia. Thou hast reduced to captivity the chiefs of the Rotennu.* I made them to behold thy Majesty in the splendor of thy panoply of war, wielding thy weapons and combating in thy war-chariot.

" 3. I came! I gave thee might to fell the people of the far East ! Thou hast traversed the provinces of the Land of the Gods. † I made them to behold thee like unto the Star of Morning, shedding radiance and showering dew!

" 4. I came! I gave thee might to fell the nations of the West! Phoenicia and Cyprus have thee in terror. I made them to behold thy Majesty even as a young Bull, bold of heart, horned, and unconquerable!

" 5. I came! I gave thee might to fell the dwellers in the harbors of the coast-lands ! The shores of Maten ‡ tremble before thee. I made them to behold thy Majesty even as the Crocodile, the Lord of Terror of the water, whom none dare to encounter.

" 6. I came! I gave thee might to fell those who dwell in their islands! Those who live in the midst of the great deep hear thy war-cry and tremble. I made them to behold thy Majesty as an avenger who bestrides the back of his victim.

" 7. I came! I gave thee might to fell the people of Libya! The isles of the Danæans are under the power of thy will. I made them to behold thy Majesty as a furious Lion, crouching over their corpses and stalking through their valleys.

" 8. I came! I gave thee might to fell those beyond the limits of the sea! The circuit of the great waters lies within [Page 202] thy grasp. I made them to behold thy Majesty as the Hawk which hovers on high, beholding all things at his pleasure.

" 9. I came! I gave thee might to fell the tribes of the marsh-lands,* and to bind in captivity the Herusha, † lords of the desert sands. I made them to behold thy Majesty as the Jackal of the South, Lord of Swiftness, who scours the plains of the upper and lower country.

" 10. I came ! I gave thee might to fell the nations of Nubia, even to the barbarians of Pat! I made them to behold thy Majesty like unto thy two brothers, Horus and Set, whose arms I have united to give thee power and strength."

Sound alot like the Old Testament? I promised that I would provide you the proof and I will, it's just going to take some time, since I don't have a personal library of Egyptian texts. Do you really think these scholars are making this stuff up?

4/2/11

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I responded:

"Rather or not the so-called virgins were impregnated by the actual act of coitus or not, is irrelevant."

No, it's definitely relevant if we're talking about a virgin birth. If the "virgin" got pregnant sexually, then she was no longer a virgin when she gave birth, as Mary (per the Bible) was.

"Afterall it is the divinity of the conception that is the essense of the story, not the mechanics."

If that was all that mattered, then why have mythicists made up fake parallels in order to bolster their argument, like saying it was a "virgin birth" or there was an annunciation for the conception itself? Most of the claims that mythicists make about every one of their major deities has absolutely zero basis in pre-Christian mythology. Why are they lying in order to stack the deck, if the small handful of valid comparisons are convincing?

"Rather Mary or Isis were products of immaculate conceptions or not is irrelevant, since the Christian jury is still hung on that one."

The "immaculate conception" refers to the conception of Mary, not of Jesus. Though to be fair, a lot of Christians get that wrong, also. Mythicists claim that Horus was born of a virgin, as Jesus was, but there is no version of the Horus story in which his mother is a virgin at his birth.

"In the future, David, please stay on topic and present the same level of evidence that you demand."

I am. All I'm asking for is the stories where Horus did these things, which is exactly what I have for Jesus.

"Next we'll discuss these:

1. Winter solstice/December 25th
2. The Egyptian Ankh
3. Baptism
4. The missing years of Horus/Jesus' life
5. The twelve disciples

So as to save time, please tell me which of these you consider in dispute."

Sorry, but I'm putting the burden on you to prove your case, so I'm asking you to provide evidence for at least half of the claims that mythicists make about Horus, or to concede that most of them do not have evidence to support them. Once you do one or the other, I'll debate the particulars of individual claims, if you'd like. But I don't consider the ball to be in my court until you've provided evidence for at least half of them (11, in this case).

Here's the list:

1. Born of a virgin
2. Born in a cave/manger
3. Birth announced by a star in the East
4. Birth attended by three wise men
5. Was a child teacher in the temple at age 12
6. Baptized by "Anup the Baptizer"
7. Baptizer was decapitated
8. Had 12 disciples
9. Performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised the dead
10. Walked on water
11. His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
12. Delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
13. Was transfigured on the Mount. 
14. Was crucified
15. Was buried for three days in a tomb
16. Was resurrected
17. He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth.” (Note: If you can prove any four of these titles, I'll consider this one fulfilled)
18. Was “the Fisher”, was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.
19. Came to fulfill the law 
20. Called "The KRST" or "anointed one"
21. Was supposed to reign a thousand years.

So do you agree that most of these are false, or do you have evidence for them?

"David, I just mentioned the temple in Luxor. Perhaps you do not find it convincing, but you can not say we do not have the stories."

Of course I can, since the Luxor carvings don't show evidence for even ONE of the 21 items on the mythicist lists, much less at least half of them.

" I've read many of the stories in the wisdom literature of ancient Egypt."

And do they back up at least half of the claims? If so, please post the relevant portions.

"I promised that I would provide you the proof and I will, it's just going to take some time, since I don't have a personal library of Egyptian texts."

No problem. I can wait as long as you'd like me to, but just keep in mind that I'm not going to give this nonsense any credence until at least half of the claims for one of the deities has been proven.

"Do you really think these scholars are making this stuff up?"

Frankly, yes. If they weren't, then they'd have evidence to support their claims, wouldn't they?

Peace,

David

4/2/11

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John responded:

David, every bit of evidence you seek is in this book: " Christ in Egypt" by D.M. Murdock.

Go to the library and check it out, or go to Amazon.com and buy it. Read the book David, if you want the truth. But I know you won't. You don't want the truth. All you want to do is argue. The problem is the simple fact that you have no argument. Jesus "the" Christ was created from the mold of Horus and that's all there is to it. Fortunately for the world though, the word is finally getting out.

http://stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html

4/4/11

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I responded:

"David, everybit of evidence you seek is in this book: " Christ in Egypt" by D.M. Murdock."

And I assume you have the book. In that case, you should have no problem acquiring the evidence, right? So what's the problem? Why can't you find it?

David

4/5/11

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John responded:

No, I don't have the book, but I'm not the one complaining about the evidence either. Like I said, you don't care about the truth. You only want distrctions like the idiot that tried to debunk the Lexor Temple carving. His sad excuse for "debunking" has already been debunked. Keeping in mind that it is "theists" that proclaim Satan put the dinosaurs here to trick them. I dismiss each one of you out of hand just for the simple fact that you believe in imaginary beings in the sky. You're all just plain kooky! I'll leave you to those voices you hear.

John

4/6/11

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I responded:

John,

Huh? Why did you say the evidence was in the book if you don't have the book? Blind faith? Why don't you buy the book and see if the evidence is there? I'm so sure it's not that I'll give you $1000 if it is.

Tell you what - why don't you e-mail Diane Murdock and ask her to give you the evidence? Her e-mail address is acharya_s@yahoo.com. The fact is that if the evidence existed, mythicists would be showing it off to the world. Instead, not a single one of them is able to find it. What does that tell you?

"You only want distrctions like the idiot that tried to debunk the Lexor Temple carving."

You think Richard Carrier, the famed atheist scholar who has a Bachelor's, Master's, and PhD in ancient history, is an idiot? Interesting.

"His sad excuse for "debunking" has already been debunked"

When and how?

David

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John responded:

Here's a link to a response to Richard C. Carrier's apologetics:

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html

As for emailing Archarya S, why don't you email her and offer her the thousand dollars? Seems to me you would go directly to the source.

John

4/8/11

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I responded:

"As for emailing Archarya S, why don't you email her and offer her the thousand dollars? Seems to me you would go directly to the source."

I did. She never responded. Seems she couldn't find the evidence, either. If you go to my Copycat Challenge website, you'll see a list of all of the mythicist websites that I e-mailed my challenge to (sixteen in all). Only three responded, and not one of them offered any evidence.

Really, is it beginning to sink in yet? If you don't accept Christianity as true, that's your business, but if you're still buying this Christ-myth nonsense, then you're way too gullible.

David

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John responded:

In truth, she probably gets emails from a lot of whackos, and out of policy doesn't respond. In fairness, I'd say you error unless you've read her book, since it claims to hold the evidence. Do you expect her to send you a free copy?

I've read several books on Ancient Egypt, and many more on the world's religions, and I can say without a doubt that Christianity borrowed from Egypt. The connections between Horus and Jesus are indisputable in proper context. You simply choose to interpet the findings to substantiate your faith in the story of Jesus. The truth is, however, your own bibles fails miserably at this very thing. Luke and Mathew can not seem to agree on a single item of significance where Jesus is concerned. You should be far more critical of your own sources for you beliefs, than those of others. I won't waste anymore time here, and neither will others, because we all know there's no possible evidence that could ever survive your bias interpretation. Christianity was founded on, and survives upon, the very principle of bias interpretation. The 30,000 different denominations of Christianity prove this daily.

Like I said, theists have claimed Satan placed the dinosaurs in the bedrock to trick them. There's simply no logic that could ever escape this convolution of reason. At the end of the day, you'll always believe what you believe regardless of the evidence. It's simply because you have an emotional relationship with the idea of Jesus. It's no different than me telling someone their girlfriend is cheating on them. Like thousands of men before them, until they catch in on her in the act, they will work very hard to dismiss any other evidence.

It's just the way it is. Good day.

4/9/11

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I responded:

"In truth, she probably gets emails from a lot of whackos, and out of policy doesn't respond. In fairness, I'd say you error unless you've read her book, since it claims to hold the evidence."

First of all, if "Christ In Egypt" did have the evidence, then her fans would have no problem finding it, would they? Second, I actually had two of her own supporters admit to me that her book does not contain the evidence.

"Do you expect her to send you a free copy?"

No, but I do expect those who claim that the book contains the evidence to present me with said evidence.

"The connections between Horus and Jesus are indisputable in proper context."

So even though the evidence does not exist for most of the connections, the connections are indisputable? I'm sorry, but you've clearly never seen the evidence for most of the claims, but believe the claims anyways, which hardly makes you a reliable judge of this stuff.

"Luke and Mathew can not seem to agree on a single item of significance where Jesus is concerned."

False. For example, they both agree that He was crucified and resurrected. Or are those not significant items, in your opinion?

"I won't waste anymore time here, and neither will others, because we all know there's no possible evidence that could ever survive your bias interpretation."

If people were presenting me with the evidence and I was rejecting it, then perhaps you would have a point. But so far no one, not even yourself, has even presented me with evidence for most of the mythicist claims for Horus, Mithra, etc. So it's not a question of whether there is evidence that can't survive my interpretation, but whether there is evidence in the first place.

"At the end of the day, you'll always believe what you believe regardless of the evidence."

Let's test this hypothesis, shall we? Present me with the evidence for the majority of the Horus claims, and let's see if I continue to believe what I believe.

You can't, since you have no evidence for most of the claims. I knew it when we first started this conversation, that no matter how much we conversed, you would never present me with the evidence.

And look, I was right.

David

4/10/11

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John responded:

Even wiki, which, in my opinion, is about apologetic as you can get, concedes the majority of the claims.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology

You need to realize that Horus, like Yahweh, was known by many different names throughout Egypt, both geographically and temporally (over time). Also, Christians picked from the trinity "story" of Osiris, Isis, and Horus in fabricating Jesus. The comparisons are therefore cross parallel i.e.: Osiris, not Horus, died and was ressurrected, and Osiris had the twelve disciples not Horus. These facts are indisputable. Nibble on this, and we'll see where you go. Remember that you've already set the standard for your critiquing, by forgiving your bible its critical errors and settling for the "gist" or "essense" of the story in Luke and Mathew. We'll see if you're so kind with this evidence. JM

4/12/11

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I responded:

"Even wiki, which, in my opinion, is about apologetic as you can get, concedes the majority of the claims."

No, it concedes that there are people out there who are arguing that they are true. Besides, you might want to read that page again - it doesn't even touch on the majority of the claims, but only discusses a handful of them.

"The comparisons are therefore cross parallel i.e.: Osiris, not Horus, died and was ressurrected, and Osiris had the twelve disciples not Horus. These facts are indisputable. "

So are you saying that of the 21 mythicist claims for Horus, some of them are actually for Osiris, not Horus. Okay, I'll play along. If you can provide evidence that at least half of these Horus claims are true for Osiris OR Horus, I'll count it.

"Remember that you've already set the standard for your critiquing, by forgiving your bible its critical errors and settling for the "gist" or "essense" of the story in Luke and Mathew. We'll see if you're so kind with this evidence."

Again, all I'm asking for is the stories where these things happen, exactly as we have for Jesus. And I never said anything about settling for the "gist" or "essence", so don't put words in my mouth.

David

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